Devaluing problem within selling kittycats

[LibGwen Resident]

Isobel, what I did when I discovered KittyCatS was visit the markets and wander around. I made notes of what traits I loved (and which caught my eye but didn't really grab me when I took a closer look). Then I sought out some cats that had some of those traits and started combining. I kept it small to start with because I knew my opinions would probably change a little. One thing I quickly learned is you will find yourself wanting to mate each cat to several different mates: Whether you get the results you want or not, eventually you will be wanting to try something else.

For simply looking, look for cats that are in their full-prim mode so you can see how light affects the traits. Click a cat and its traits will be listed in local chat, so you can find out what the traits are called. The KittyCatS store region has many wandering around. In the secondary markets most cats are sold in image mode, but you can always find a few full-prim ones scattered around, and the love shacks always have some. The market list is in this post, and there is a sub-section for love shacks: http://kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.ph...6#pid62226

[Zarabeth Langer]

Most people who buy kittens buy them to breed them. If you have something you don't want others to have, don't sell the kittens (of course then you make no lindens at all). People drop the prices extremely fast on new traits. A lot of people just do this to make lindens and they will undercut others' prices to make a fast buck. Even if you don't sell your kittens it's not like there are any truly unique cats other than the LEs. So eventually no matter what you have for regular cats others will get them too and undercut you.

Unfortunately, the market for Kittycats is completely flooded and has been for a couple years now. Making a profit from breeding just isn't going to happen very often. There are just too many kittens out there now and too many people selling them for close to nothing. This is something I had to learn the hard way because no one tells you this up front. Fortunately I do this as a hobby not a money maker and I really enjoy breeding my pink kitties and I tend to hoard the kittens.

[Devilness Chant]

I hold my breath every time I see a pricing thread open because it usually ends up with rude remarks and fighting. But I am soooo pleased to see ppl talking to each other, and not at each other. I just wanted to start by saying, Thank you ALL for proving me wrong.

Please don't hurt me for saying this again lol (I bruise easily)

One of the things, I believe, that devaluates a kitty, is the fact that too many have rec traits in their lines. (yes I am on my purist soap box again lol)

I just can't emphasize enough to get the word out to new breeders especially. If you pull or pass a trait with a rec trait, the rec trait will win out in the end. To me, that devaluates the new more dom traits. And it also results in flooding the market with the same traits.

I chuckled when I read Theos thread and he brought up the Bengal Snows with Rainbow eyes taking over. lol (I remember loaning you mine hehehe) (they were the rave once lol)

Here is an example of why the Salt and Peppers took over the market for soooo long. When I came back to breeding I fell in love with the Ausie furs. But the one I got was a dom fur. Everyone I looked at had a salt n pepper in its line. Ppl used them like crazy to pull or pass the Ausie furs. The ones I got that didn't show the salt n pepper in their lines ended up being salts. Sooooooo I had a bunch of salt n pepper boxes in my cattery and trashed that project. It showed that a lot of ppl used the "quick" way to get the newer furs, which results in flooding the market with one trait.

Since then I have stuck with the Ausiie Blue since it can't pass a salt. And at this point I am soooo grateful for that! lol I'm sure at some point I will lose my beautiful Blonde Streaked whiskers, since there is latte in the background, but I am loving the kitties I am breeding now and the latte isn't so bad. I want to add, that in moving the traits I want into the Blue, I ended up pulling a ton of Salts out of the other kitties that had the traits I wanted.

My long drawn out point is, it's not just undercutting, over breeding, and using other ppls kitties to make a buck, that hurts the market. It's also the way ppl are breeding the hurts. I didn't often spend a lot on kitties, I was always a bargain shopper. *blush But when I came back, I was spending one to two K on them to make the kitties I wanted. (I nuked my older kitties thinking they would always be around sigh) After I ended up with a bunch of Salts and other traits I didn't want, I stopped buying. A dear friend gave me a few traits I wanted to breed and have a total of 4 breeders and two boys with no girl friends, since I keep getting boys again. sigh (kitties can be sooo evil)

I believe a lot of us older breeders, and older breeders that spend a lot of money on kitties feel the same way. Why spend a lot of RL money on a new traits, or traits that we want, when they are just going to be swallowed up with a trait that is already worth less, or flooded. I also now understand why the people that spend the larger amounts of money on kitties only buy from breeders they know and trust.

Use the rec traits to see what your starters hide. Then take the time and effort to use a dom trait with those starters, to make pure traits that will last. This is a good way to build up a steady clientele that will trust you and keep coming back.

[JessicaArianaHamby Resident]

I am also extremely impressed with the way this topic is being carried out! Lets continue! I love seeing when people can get along with one another...

I am one of those people who buy two identical cats, and breed them. However, I do not sell the babies. My only purpose is to create megapuss for myself to enjoy.

Reason I do not sell mine though is because they are my babies, and I can't handle selling them to someone. I love you kitties!

(01-01-2016 10:06 AM)Devilness Chant Wrote:  I hold my breath every time I see a pricing thread open because it usually ends up with rude remarks and fighting. But I am soooo pleased to see ppl talking to each other, and not at each other. I just wanted to start by saying, Thank you ALL for proving me wrong.

Please don't hurt me for saying this again lol (I bruise easily)

One of the things, I believe, that devaluates a kitty, is the fact that too many have rec traits in their lines. (yes I am on my purist soap box again lol)

I just can't emphasize enough to get the word out to new breeders especially. If you pull or pass a trait with a rec trait, the rec trait will win out in the end. To me, that devaluates the new more dom traits. And it also results in flooding the market with the same traits.

I chuckled when I read Theos thread and he brought up the Bengal Snows with Rainbow eyes taking over. lol (I remember loaning you mine hehehe) (they were the rave once lol)

Here is an example of why the Salt and Peppers took over the market for soooo long. When I came back to breeding I fell in love with the Ausie furs. But the one I got was a dom fur. Everyone I looked at had a salt n pepper in its line. Ppl used them like crazy to pull or pass the Ausie furs. The ones I got that didn't show the salt n pepper in their lines ended up being salts. Sooooooo I had a bunch of salt n pepper boxes in my cattery and trashed that project. It showed that a lot of ppl used the "quick" way to get the newer furs, which results in flooding the market with one trait.

Since then I have stuck with the Ausiie Blue since it can't pass a salt. And at this point I am soooo grateful for that! lol I'm sure at some point I will lose my beautiful Blonde Streaked whiskers, since there is latte in the background, but I am loving the kitties I am breeding now and the latte isn't so bad. I want to add, that in moving the traits I want into the Blue, I ended up pulling a ton of Salts out of the other kitties that had the traits I wanted.

My long drawn out point is, it's not just undercutting, over breeding, and using other ppls kitties to make a buck, that hurts the market. It's also the way ppl are breeding the hurts. I didn't often spend a lot on kitties, I was always a bargain shopper. *blush But when I came back, I was spending one to two K on them to make the kitties I wanted. (I nuked my older kitties thinking they would always be around sigh) After I ended up with a bunch of Salts and other traits I didn't want, I stopped buying. A dear friend gave me a few traits I wanted to breed and have a total of 4 breeders and two boys with no girl friends, since I keep getting boys again. sigh (kitties can be sooo evil)

I believe a lot of us older breeders, and older breeders that spend a lot of money on kitties feel the same way. Why spend a lot of RL money on a new traits, or traits that we want, when they are just going to be swallowed up with a trait that is already worth less, or flooded. I also now understand why the people that spend the larger amounts of money on kitties only buy from breeders they know and trust.

Use the rec traits to see what your starters hide. Then take the time and effort to use a dom trait with those starters, to make pure traits that will last. This is a good way to build up a steady clientele that will trust you and keep coming back.

[fabioazevedo Oh]

I am almost 3 years in Kittycats, and this issue arise from time to time. Long discussion about, offenses, conclusions, fights, and months for all spirits, return to normality.

The Kittycats Cats are like a "ball", exist several ways to play. Some prefer to play the ball with his hand, and the other with his feet.


It is known to all that there is a division in our market. Two ways to play well clear Kittycats. Thus, each side should respect the other, and let their own side of poison.

Side 1: Like creating the kittens as Hooby, just facing the cats sales market, creates the kittens like, and make their favorite combinations.

Side 2: Like to create cats to sell in the market, and as a market, you need to follow the flow of the most popular combinations, and adapt your cattery to market demands.


What is observed is that the Side 1, when people are 'politically correct', while the second side are the bad, bad people, and bad character.

If I like to play the ball with their feet, so please, I will not do not disturb those who like to play the ball with their hands.

Kittycats cats are charming, and loving, and this attracts the attention of Side 1, but at the same time they are breeding, and this attracts the attention of Side 2, and, if there is no market will not exist Kittycats.


But here's a point, people who recommend you to create what you like, should be more honest and say, you should have a good credit card to pay for your hobby. And do not let you discover this, along the way, with a great disappointment.


The subject, "many boxes on the market", has been said several times, even topical application to Kittycats create new cats menagerie, as this would be the solution to all problems. And Kittycats made, new menagerie cats: giraffes, and Confetti and then past 6 months, one again, telling many boxs available in the market.



Choose the "Side" you like and move on. Be happy. Kittycats support both sides.

Those who chose the Side 2, know that there are many ways to create cats. Using recessive, pure, dominant, recessive, and thus choose the way you like and be happy.


It's more honest explain it this way, than just recommend a single path. And if you like to play as Kittycats market, do not let the "politically correct" intimidate you. It is the hint.

---

As for the part that you said about copy cats, be at peace, this is something that the market Kittycats not care much. Buy two equal and make copies, this is one of the market activities. With each new collection, we need lots of recessive cats to the demand.

I have lots of my projects, copied, over the years, and I really do not care about this. If one my cat sold, is because it is something that the market wants, and there is demand to sell more copies of it.

The only thing I need to do is to be creative, and follow the cat's evolution. When developing the next most recessive, then the next most recessive.

I confess that sometimes I was a little angry, just at the beginning, when cats I sold that hid fantastic combinations, and then the first round, the person got the combination, which I had not yet. laughs. but this does not disturb me anymore.

Many people come and buy my cats, and then go and sell in markets that I have no shop and auctions that are out of my timezone. They are big sellers.

But if there is any cat design that you do not want anyone to copy, the Kittycats provides the "Perma-pet" option. Sell ​​cats as perma'pet, and your problems copies, will be solved.


I chose to follow the side 2. Play Kittycats as a market. And I'm happy to achieve my goals, also as a person of side 1, is happy to get a perfect combination of cat.

that each person will be happy to do what they like.

[Oselkhandro Resident]

Fabio, you are SO RIGHT! I agree that we need to be honest up front with new KittyCatS enthusiasts. If a person wants to sell some kitties, it does not work to "just breed what you like". Perhaps there is some middle ground. I breed the combos I like for my own pleasure. This is, as Fabio said, EXPENSIVE. But I hope to eventually sell a few to pay for kibble, and this means that I need to find the new traits and not hoard them in boxes (my bad habit, lol). This will require some discipline on my part. Meanwhile, I will breed the pretty kittens I like, for my own pleasure. Its all good!

[Theodore Nacht]

(01-03-2016 11:10 AM)fabioazevedo Oh Wrote:  
But here's a point, people who recommend you to create what you like, should be more honest and say, you should have a good credit card to pay for your hobby. And do not let you discover this, along the way, with a great disappointment.

I recommend you create what you like, wholeheartedly, always. But I also will be absolutely honest and say it's expensive. It is. Maybe not everyone is upfront about that, but I'm completely willing to say it. (I would also argue it's no more expensive than supporting a Starbucks habit...)

When KittyCatS was new (and maybe still now) people would start breeding, make boxes, open ALL their boxes, end up with 400 cats to feed, and then have "fire sales" and sell hundreds of cats and boxes well below value to raise Ls to feed their huge cattery. Their excitement outstripped their common sense. It's understandable, and sometimes I'd help these people, give them kibble for their hungry cats, go over to their catteries and help them decide which cats to keep and which to menagerie or give away.

I've always understood the desire to be swept away in your love for the kitties and have too many or live too large. As a long-time auctioneer, I'm also there every week telling people to buy more cats. I see what people think it's worth it to splash out on, what people think they shouldn't invest in. And I definitely agree there are two types of people--people who are in kitties because they love the kitties, and people who treat it as a business. I've always been in the camp with those who want to treat it as a hobby...and hobbies cost money, in general. They don't make it.

I'm fortunate that my cattery often comes close to breaking even, but I've never turned an actual profit on KittyCatS, even auctioneering for four years straight. I've always supported this hobby with my RL cash. And I've budgeted for it. This is what I do instead of going to see movies in the theater, instead of going out to eat. It's something I deeply enjoy, that I share with my partner, and that has given me access to the most wonderful community of friends in SL. I was in SL for years before KC started, DJed in indie clubs for a long time, was involved in RFL and other charities... KC was the first time I found a "home" in SL. It's worth the cost to me. I don't need it to make me a profit... I'm already profiting from the sense of community it gives me and the joy I get from opening new kitten boxes.

When I say "breed what you love," I'm definitely saying "be ready to back up your love with RL money," and I used to offer "KittyCatS budgeting" classes for those who were getting in over their heads. (If anyone wants help with that, let me know.)

Perhaps this is also why some people feel the need to combine cats from someone else's line and make clone cats... They spent more than they can strictly afford to and need to turn an immediate profit on the cat before the trait loses value.

Or, as Fabio said, they may be Type 2 buyers who see the cats bought as an investment and are planning to recoup on that investment by immediately reproducing the trait and selling as many as they can to capitalize on the trait's current popularity.

That's valid. I avoid buying such cats because it doesn't fit with what I value in kitties, but lots of people snap them up. The KC market is unregulated, so as long as there's demand for those cats, people will continue to profit from it. That means that, as Fabio also suggested... If you breed a perfect cat and want to share it but don't want someone else cloning it, PermaPet is a great idea. If, however, you want to make maximum profit from the cats you're selling, you'll be risking clone cats if you sell more than one from a single line.

There's a small percentage of breeders who can afford to spend 5k+ on a cat. There's a smaller percentage still who can afford 10k+, 20k+, up to the hundreds of thousands of lindens. That percentage of breeders is smaller and smaller the higher the price tag goes... And those people are more and more likely to be Type 2 business-minded buyers. If you're selling a cat in that price range, you need to prepare that those buyers will start selling copies of your cat to get their investment back immediately.

Your maximum profits invite others to make their maximum profits. That seems to be the bottom line.

That said... Some of the highest selling cats ever at our Late Nacht auctions were very "ordinary" cats who had extraordinary cuteness. Rampant bid wars over porcelain gerbera eyed black russians... 30k+ a couple years ago. That boom lasted weeks. Crazy bid war over a 9t Snowshoe Lilac with beautiful traits... 9k not long ago. Bengal Black with violet eyes (after violet eyes weren't new anymore) 6k+.

And I've seen brand new desirable traits go No Sale because it opened for what that trait sold for last week and the bottom's already dropped out....or the buyers already own one identical to the one on sale.

There are no sure things in KittyCatS business-wise... but the joy of their cuteness can always be a sure thing. Getting the exact traits you wanted... that win is a definite win. Everyone has different goals. If yours are making you happy, then you do you.

[Draco Nacht]

I'll add to this as an auctioneer and a KC breeder, I don't say "breed what you love" to be politically correct. I say it because of the huge number of times I've seen people make what they think is a business decision to buy a 30k cat with many recessive traits that they don't necessarily love only to find even by the next week those cats are going for 10k because of overbreeding. So people have a cat who isn't even of breeding age who has had their value cut by 2/3s and the argument is that breeding for what you love is going to be a credit card heavy endeavor?

What we usually say is that chasing the market is likely to be frustrating. Cats do not have an inherent value, but as you say, a market value based on what people think they are worth. Therefore, if you're breeding cats you love, they have value to *you.* Since no one can entirely predict what the market as a whole is going to want or need on any given night (as Theo says, sometimes a snowshoe lilac can go for 9k, the next week it might no sale for 500L) usually you're better off breeding a cat you will be happy looking at than one you don't really care about that you thought would sell for 10k and can't unload. To me, that is a bigger credit card drain and one I'd be more likely to resent.

p.s. I'm making decent bank off of Confettis and considering my initial investment was just menagerie points, it's pretty much win.

[JC Aferdita]

Everyone keep saying that Kittycats is such an expensive hobby. In my experience, when I was very new, this was very true. I got swept away by their cuteness and all the gift boxes friends gave me and I just had to open them all and breed them all and suddenly I was broke and had to use RL money to support it. Now that I know what I like, and enjoy breeding, I find I have a much easier time to pace myself. I spend about 170L a week on food. Yes, my Cattery is only made up of two pairs at a time, it's not going fast getting to where I want to be. But I know where I want to be, and it's going to be my dream-cat, so I don't mind waiting. Because the wait will be worth it. Kittycats doesn't have to break your bank account. It doesn't have to be expensive. You don't have to buy all those vitamins and birth every box you own. Kittycats is set up in such a way that you can spend as much money on it that you can afford. The only thing in exchange for money is time and patience. And if you want to speed things up, you can always menagerie the couple as soon as you get the goal you want out of a pair, and move onto the next pair

That is for the kind of people that want to keep it as a hobby and not try to live off of their profit from breeding kittycats. I have no clue how to do that so I can't really comment on it. But something I noticed, while pondering the markets and auctions, people tend to spend more money on a cat who has a line which the breeder spent a lot of time and effort on (stuff like that usually shows). And people tend to spend more time and effort on lines they enjoy to look at. That's why I usually advice in breeding what you like.

[Pusssycat Whitesong]

i understand that breeders work hard too make the kitties that have but that just like in real life you breed your kitty's an u give the babies away or u sell then are you going too say they cant breed the kitties an make babies form them then there taking what u creatured ? realife breeders work just as hard too i got a friend in real life that breeds dogs , she loves too see others breed those bays see what puppys come from it i know sl breeding not exactly the same but its close i think soo many just put too much in too it when i started i thought it was supposed too be a fun thing too do that far from being fun when you get soo stress out about it .i thinking maybe if you don't like the idea someone is breeding you kittycats taking the credit then sell them only too people you know wont doo that too you of maybe kittycas make it soo that you cant breed one that you didn't make your self?