Devaluing problem within selling kittycats

[Chastity Pexie]

There is a present problem I am noticing more often lately of people reselling other's lines of breeding. So here is my concern.

When you take two kitties from the same breeder and you pair them together and then sell the offspring, are we in a mutual understanding as a breeding community that this is acceptable?

If you take two cats, from two separate breeders and then pair them, get an offspring and sell this.. this is more of an acceptable pairing and sell because the breeder has added something unique to this line that they just created.

Why then are we allowing breeders (that are obviously not new to the breeding game) to sell other people's hard work so they make a quick buck?

For example, to make it more clear.. Breeder A has set for sale two kitties that are almost identical in trait value and have either the same grandparents or grandparents from the same line. Breeder B buys both kitties and them breeds them. Breeder B then goes to an auction or a bidboard and resells this kitty as if they added any value to this kitty and the line that Breeder A created.

How can we, as a breeding community, monitor this "copycat reselling"? Or is it something we are all okay with, excluding me? I put hard work into the kittycats that I breed and place out there and I expect the same from other breeders when I type out my sniper bid at our auctions.

Lets not devalue our work and effort.

Thoughts?

[Theodore Nacht]

Lazy, samey breeding leads to market crashes and steep drops in trait value. I don't wish to criticize anyone in our wonderful community, but this is (and always has been) a potential problem in KittyCatS.

If you sell cats from your line, your line may be replicated. The profit you make off the cat you sell is weighed against the potential for losses as time goes on and more cats from your line are replicated and sold by others. People who buy from you, especially if it's a large investment in a new, expensive trait, may feel entitled to sell every offspring they get to recoup their investment.

We especially see this with Most Recessive Traits, that will eventually become "default" in a given line as more dominant traits pass the hidden and are lost from the gene pool--Anyone remember seeing hundreds of Bengal Snows with Odyssey Rainbow eyes, Abyssinian Dark Chocolates without count with Odyssey Bellini?--but not exclusively: Foxie Salt and Pepper legions all bearing identical Apple eyes, anyone?

What you may realize at once when considering those examples is that all those combinations are devalued now. People get tired of seeing the same thing over and over again, no matter how recessive, useful, or objectively pretty the combination is. After a dozen, they want to see something new.

Hence the common wisdom in KittyCatS has always been to breed one established line with a different established line to yield new combinations of traits. This makes the most money, keeps the traits viable longer, and is objectively more interesting. Despite this, many people will simply put two nearly identical cats together--or cats from a single established line--and replicate them, cloning them if you will. Instead of breeding for interesting traits (as the common wisdom holds responsible breeders do) they churn out identical kittens like an assembly line and flood the market with samey kittens that devalue the traits they carry.

I've never smiled on this. Now and then, as an auctioneer and a busy human, an incidence will get past me. I won't realize until I'm in the pedigree in front of an audience that a cat I'm promoting is a clone, someone making money off someone else's work and aesthetic. That always bothers me. It's not the culture I want to cultivate around Late Nacht Auction or the breeding philosophy I personally adhere to.

I strongly encourage anyone interested in KittyCatS to envision their perfect kitty and try to make it happen. When you achieve it, don't keep breeding indefinitely for the same thing... Move on to the next perfect cat you can dream up.

Don't rely on recessiveness to make your cats saleable--focus on cuteness. On uniqueness. Chasing the new "hot" trait and riding it into the ground gets old fast. If you love a new trait, buy it. Splash out. Treat yourself. But think critically about how you want to use it instead of just buying a breeding pair and churning it out.

That's my two cents anyway, for anyone who cares.

--Theo, who's been here a damn long time

[Izo Ryba]

My thoughts are : this is a free market.
Aside from not selling what you breed, or limiting who can sell cats on your own bidboards, there is no way to enforce 'agreements' . Personally I hate attempts to price fix / monopolize.

We're not talking about patented lines of fruit trees / roses / AKC puppies / race horses. Callie is the only one who really has any kind of real world legal rights in this.

While I understand that people don't want to put a ton of lindens into something just to be undercut, THIS IS JUST A GAME. Don't get into it to make money. You get several hundred people and their alts breeding whatever, the market gets flooded after a while, the latest hot cat is old news after a bit, and that's just the way it goes.

There are a couple of folks out there whose entire business model is selling lots of mostly identical recessive cats for others to use as breeders.

[Wendi Lavendel]

This has been a debate off and on for years. I agree that a breeders should be discouraged from selling "copycat" work and instead encouraged to try the challenge of taking traits they like from 2 different breeders and coming up with their own combination (a hobby of mine actually, when I have the time, and I don't hesitate to sell the duds of such projects if I think people might want them) and selling those offspring, or perhaps coming up with a completely different combination.

However.. we've had this debate SEVERAL times before. Most of the people that you wish would read your posts will likely not read them, and will continue to do what they're doing. And they do have the freedom to do this. Everyone has the right to attempt to sell what they like. All you can do is refuse to buy (or as auctioneer, politely suggest they provide a different cat and explain why as diplomatically as possible). And who are we to say what is and is not acceptable, anyway? None of us are the KittyCatS Merchant police (although several unsuccessful attempts have been made to set up groups of "ethical sellers").

Don't read crap that isn't here: I'm not saying that anyone is upset or unhappy or doesn't have the right to complain blah blah blah. I'm just sayin' that we're rehashing an old argument that's probably never going to go away because people do have the right to do what they want, whether we agree with it or not, and there's not much we can do about it.

[Emilia Darkwatch]

I understand the frustration of taking time and effort to breed kitties and seeing clones of that cat appear from those who bought them from you. I've had this experience and even was undercut by them on their selling price which made me feel I had to then reduce mine to make mine saleable again, so I was not terribly happy about it. I'm not sure though, that it's always a purposeful attempt to upset us. It is possible that the person who bought the cat thinks it is amazing and it really caught their eye, and so they try and breed ones like it because they see it as being potentially something another may also be drawn to also, for similar reasons they were. I suppose what I'm saying is that in some cases at least, this kind of imitation can be, in theory, flattery to the fact one bred a lovely kitty. Or perhaps they were keen to breed together siblings which is why they purchased a pair from the same seller, in some cases

I would agree that in the case of newer traits people are often trying to make back what they spent on the cat. Perhaps they might keep the first offspring or a nice one, and sell others which can be clone-like. Unfortunately, it does often end up adding up to a load of clones on the market when enough people have them and are breeding them and it is then very difficult to sell that cat at all because everything gets so over-saturated

There is also the element of it that some people have and will always be in it because they want to make a profit more than anything else. I see them asking in the Kitty chat questions such as "what are the best traits?". When you ask what they mean by "best"... they indicate they mean the most saleable or those that are worth more and will sell better. They just aren't in it for the same reasons I am. Sure, I want to sell my cats but I also really enjoy making individual combinations. So they will buy a pair on purpose to produce clones and it won't bother them that it could be called the hard work of someone else. They have no issue with making money off this. It's not my personal goal or interest and it can even seem quite cold-blooded, but it is just the way some people approach it... to make profit... and I don't think we can really stop it nor make them do as we choose to

I accept it as a risk that can happen and try not to get too bothered about it

[Chastity Pexie]

Thank you all very much for your comments and keeping this discussion rational and sincere.

I think I might have run into a thread when I first started in KittycatS about a similar issue. And unfortunately, like many of you have said.. you can't police these things. Its impossible, literally. And on top of that, people are people, and some are just going to do these things or try their best to make money this way and only this way.

I do think there needs to be more of an awareness of these situations.. How do we get there? I honestly don't know. But that's why we are all here right? To do something fun and enjoyable, maybe or maybe not make a little and learn!

[Oselkhandro Resident]

Hmmm, I know of at least one excellent, reputable breeder who regularly promotes sales of matched 9T pairs (usually with lovely and/or recessive traits) with the specific promise that they will make "perfect" kittens. These pairs are premium priced, and do indeed produce amazing kittens. Now, surely, this breeder knows that nobody is going to buy a pair, and then ONLY breed one kitten. It truly seems to me that the breeder knows that her line will be duplicated, since the breeder sells her cats specifically to continue the breeding line from matched pairs. I wonder if the marketing model itself contributes to this "problem"and if it is actually just an issue of supply and demand. When I have bought a matched pair to breed, I DO NOT flood the kittens onto the market, simply because of marketing dynamics. However, anyone who sells breeding pairs has to be aware that this will eventually devalue the rarity of that line. The original seller, pricing kitty pairs accordingly, will recoup the value of their work in their first few sales (I think about pharmaceutical companies, which price a new name brand drug at a premium, knowing that the instant the patent expires, the branded drug will be rendered worthless by generics...I was a pharma marketer and taught marketing for 25 years). It is inevitable that in a free market, the "first to market" have an advantage, and others will sell at pennies on the dollar. Generics serve a purpose, by making products available to a broader public. It is up to the original creators to factor this into their launch pricing model.

[Minx Diabolito]

I know I can't change the way people want to do things but what I try to do especially with new breeders is to suggest that what is most valuable is breeding cats that are unique. I say they have more chance to sell those and also make their mark themselves which i think is true and gives them a chance to sell cats that aren't based on current fads. That means when the current fad is over they can still sell the kitty and have a market for it! Maybe if we do that it can make a bit of a change in how people see it =)

I don't think we can ever do anything about the ones who do it mostly for profit though. It happens in all the breedables that some people are just like that and about the money more than anything. They even go round buying other peoples cats especially the megas to resell which can be offensive but I don't think we can stop it =(

[MsMagick Resident]

(12-22-2015 06:27 PM)Chastity Pexie Wrote:  When you take two kitties from the same breeder and you pair them together and then sell the offspring, are we in a mutual understanding as a breeding community that this is acceptable?

Of course, it's called Business!

I've gone to more than one reputable seller looking for a partner for a kitty that I wanted to get from them, and I've had other breeders ask me.

If you don't want someone to breed and sell your cats, then don't sell them.

Either way, it is nature of the market that as more similar kitties are available, the price will drop. That's called Economics.

Magick

[Ivy Norsk]

I've been trying to think of a way to respond to this thread that's useful. I agree with many of the points here, so just a few comments.

I think there are de facto such things as "utility cats" in the market. These are those workhorse overbred recessives that are useful for pulling traits in the LEs. Some people specialize in producing these "utility cats". They do this because there is money in it until the inevitable saturation point. And people buy them because they are useful. I have purchased "utility cats" for specific breeding purposes. I have not sold them unless I have changed a trait. I would be embarrassed to sell them. Churning is not what my cattery is about. Also, producing them requires ramped up numbers of production kitties and a constant trait-chasing that I would find to be stressful and not creatively satisfying. I think there will always be such cats and such breeders because these cats are useful. They have their place in the market eco-system.

What bugs me is the way SO Many people aim just for those cats. Really, there is a far greater variety of cats that can be created (and bought). Also, I think treating certain furs as merely workhorses until people are just sick of them is kind of a shame. I was thrilled to see that foxie salt and pepper has finally been retired. I think it's a sharp-looking fur. Maybe with luck in a few years it can be rehabilitated as a boutique cat that people will look at with fresh eyes, with some new traits (or maybe not - we'll see).

However, I can also see why many people don't breed just traits that they like. It's a very uncertain thing that any given cat will sell at all, for any price. Part of this is just that there are so many breeders and so many cats, and people may not need/want that cat that I've spent months working on or that has been an offshoot of a line that I'm working on. That's just reality and numbers. Also, many's been the time when I've not bought a perfectly good cat at auction because I already own that cat or better within my own cattery. You breed for awhile, you do end up with a lot of boxes and your need for retro cats may go down. New traits sell because, well, people - even experienced breeders - don't have them yet.

Regarding selling pairs: I sometimes get male/female couples from a breeding that weren't what I was going for, but which I think would make a nice project that I don't have the time or cattery space to concentrate on. I set those out as couples because I think those cats could do well together and other people are welcome to buy them and pick them up as a project. I certainly expect that whomever buys them under those circumstances can make a line of them. My cattery being boutiquey as it is, these aren't the "perfect" recessive cats, but still very nice kitties to my eye.

The bottom line is that if you put a cat out for sale, people will do with that cat as they please, and such is life.