Hidden vs hidden

[anna Acanthus]

I'd like some ideas about this please ;

I have a pair of Russian Blacks with Caramel eyes hiding Siamese Flame, Prism and Platinum eyes.
They have given me 5 Blacks and 4 Flames but only Caramel eyes so far.
So i was i like half wondering maybe something to do with Caramel being roughly 20 away from Plat in the dominance order and Black only 10 from Flame ( and 2 Sublimes have no trouble giving me their unwanted hidden Ody Rain half the time. )
But no wait ... Ody Terra and "pure" Caramel have given me their hidden Plat eyes twice now so it can't be that nor can it be that Caramel is a "curse" eye for me.
Am i missing something ?

Yours, Perplexed, Bitter Bunnie Designs

[Tad Carlucci]

Most likely this just has to do with the nature of randomness. Just because it's a 50/50 chance a coin comes up heads or tail does not mean you can't have surprisingly long runs of Heads without any Tails.

Also, if I read it correctly, you have something like

Ab X Ac -> AA Ab Ac Bc

or

Ab X Ab -> AA Ab Ab Bb

In other words if the same trait .. Caramel .. appears on both parents, you will see it on 75% of the offspring, and the recessive (or more dominant of the two recessives) on the other 25%. (In this later case you can never see the most recessive.)

Between the high odds to begin with, and the chance of surprisingly long runs, it's not surprising you'd see long runs of Caramel.

[Saga Felix]

Hey Anna,

It is indeed random if they throw their hidden or shown traits - and very lucky that you had 4/9 siam. flames from your couple, as the chance should be around 25% :-) -But all those kittens showing caramel eyes each have a 66% chance of hiding one of the parents' hidden eyes, so who knows, maybe in next generation you get the platinum or prism? :-)

Don't fall for the temptation to start believing in "magic" and curses and whatnot. Random is random, even if you throw a coin and get heads up 20 times in a row ;-)

Saga

[anna Acanthus]

(03-23-2012 06:15 AM)Saga Felix Wrote:  Hey Anna,

It is indeed random if they throw their hidden or shown traits - and very lucky that you had 4/9 siam. flames from your couple, as the chance should be around 25% :-) -But all those kittens showing caramel eyes each have a 66% chance of hiding one of the parents' hidden eyes, so who knows, maybe in next generation you get the platinum or prism? :-)

Don't fall for the temptation to start believing in "magic" and curses and whatnot. Random is random, even if you throw a coin and get heads up 20 times in a row ;-)

Saga

HAHAHA wot ME ? No of COURSE i don't believe in magic or curses ( crosses fingers, turns around 9 times anti-clockwise, makes sure kitties are facing east before hitting the breed button )

Well i've only opened a 7t porcelain OS of theirs and nothing from him yet. I'd have even opened a Black OS if it'd been showing different eyes on the chance of hidden flame but anyhow as it's not a major breeding project don't think i'll try my luck with any of the others, although i know it must be hiding there in at least a couple of them.
I was just starting to wonder though as NINE boxes not showing hidden hasn't ever happened to me yet, and also maybe i was missing out on some vital fact, like the kind you can't see cuz it's right under your nose.
Anyhow i'm trying same thing with hidden 9T Sublime now and they have diff furs so i'll have more chances of knowing at least if flame is there if i don't get flame and i DO get the eyes.

* Maybe it's cuz they don't like their names ?

[Saga Felix]

(03-23-2012 07:10 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  HAHAHA wot ME ? No of COURSE i don't believe in magic or curses ( crosses fingers, turns around 9 times anti-clockwise, makes sure kitties are facing east before hitting the breed button )

....

* Maybe it's cuz they don't like their names ?

*Chuckles heartily*

<3


Saga
(Still giggling)

[anna Acanthus]

(03-23-2012 08:48 PM)Saga Felix Wrote:  

(03-23-2012 07:10 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  HAHAHA wot ME ? No of COURSE i don't believe in magic or curses ( crosses fingers, turns around 9 times anti-clockwise, makes sure kitties are facing east before hitting the breed button )

....

* Maybe it's cuz they don't like their names ?

*Chuckles heartily*

<3


Saga
(Still giggling)

[anna Acanthus]

I now have a pair hiding Sublime, 16 births in all, 7 Flames but STILL ALL Caramel !!
It's getting beyond a joke

It's ok i've taken a risk on a few of the best ones and got Rainbow and Plat on Plat fur using other Blacks so with a few breed backs it's all good but really how long can the odds always come out with these caramel eyes ?

In fact i'm practically just keeping these two pairs going to see if i hit a record of them never giving anything else.

[Saga Felix]

Each breeding's chances of making hidden + hidden is COMPLETELY un-related to what the cats earlier made. So, each breeding has a 25% chance, and it doesn't matter if they ever did it before or not.

I've also had cats that lived a full life and never threw hidden + hidden. I had no less than TWO pairs both hiding porcelain and they never threw it. Ever! -But now my NEW porcelain-makers just had their first kitten, and tadaaa! -PORCELAIN!
Random is random - but yes, I do feel your frustration! I think we all had experiences like that and some point with our kitties

Saga

[Tad Carlucci]

Random is random.

The goal of breeding it to control random until it's constant.

Often you can't get directly from point A to point B.

If you have a cat with a hidden, and nothing deeper to push that hidden you, you're forced to use something more dominant to pick it up. Which dominant you use limits your choices later on. If you can breed the child back to the parent, fine. That's a way to reduce the random effect. But if you can't do that, then the dominant on the child is important. You're going to have to make another child. And the dominant you choose there matters even more. What you want to do is set it up so not only can you tell WITH CERTAINTY that your dominant picked up the hidden .. you want to be able to tell WITH CERTAINTY when you cross the kids together, which of the grandkids have that hidden you're looking for because .. random IS random .. and you want to be prepared not only for that 1 in 4 grandkid which finally shows the hidden, but the very real chance NONE will and you'll have to go to another generation and, if you do, you want to be DARNED SURE you still have that hidden!!!

I know, I know, it's confusing. Charm goes crazy every time I tell her that Smokey/Pink Ice is PERFECT! She should keep it .. just in case. But every now and then the parents age out, the kids age out and she's at a loss .. and THEN I pull out that Pink Ice and tell her .. with certainty .. that it carries the Rainbow Prism she wants and, if she can just wait another week, she can re-boot the program and finally get her Pure Prism eyes without going to market and paying for the genes all over again!

Good breeding is like good chess. The better players think several moves ahead and keep options open .. just in case their opponent .. randomness .. makes a surprise move and ruins their carefully laid plans.

[anna Acanthus]

Well i think what you say is related to another thread http://www.kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.php?tid=3033 where i picked up on the fact that too often a new recessive fur is hiding behind another closely recessive e.g. Balinese behind Aby BS in this case. Most people seem to think this is better value than the shown being a Silver Tabby for example, when in fact shown Tabby allows much more scope for getting at the Bali much faster. For me it's a dead end and i'd never buy just one kitty like this to try get at the fur.

At the time i started trying to get other eyes into my flames all i had to work with in 9T was Blacks so i took a chance with them, got porcelain and flame together and was sure that different eyes would pop out sooner or later so with a few sibling breeds i'd reach my goal sometime.

I know this isn't the surest way of going about breeding out the traits i want but i like to vary my methods and although i do mostly use the systematic logical method you describe it does take time and i like to dabble in pot luck breeding too, it makes for more fun and is faster if i get lucky. I could've use an 8T smokey too but it meant waiting 2 weeks after opening and by then the project wasn't important enough to go through all that.

And like i said, i don't really need these 2 pairs anymore as i have what i need now, it's just stubbornness and interest to see if they ever give me anything else but Caramel.

But anyhow yaay for 9T Dom kitties, they are often indispensable in a breeding project.