Is the Chateau - Cocoa & White No. 2 very rare?

[Sara Franco]

I'm wondering if the Chateau Cat - Cocoa & White No. 2 is very rare or what, It is not on Saga's documents although she is covering almost everything (Big hug to her) and I haven't seen any in the markets (of course I didn't look in every shop)
I checked the kitty cat of the month March and I found that only 3 had the fur!

It is an extremely cute fur, that's why I'm wondering

[Tad Carlucci]

There is "rare" and then there is "recessive" ..

Saga's charts say NOTHING about "rare" .. which is the relative frequency at which one might find the example. That frequency is controlled outside the breeding process by factors such as when the trait was released, which starters (if any) might contain it as a breedable trait, the probabilities for those starters to do so, and whether players like it and want more examples of that trait.

Saga's charts are about "recessive" .. which is the patterns of hiding and exposing the trait while breeding. While they are a great tool for guiding our breeding programs, they say nothing at all about where, or whether, one can find the trait "in the wild" or whether others would value the trait should we produce more examples of it.

The confusion arises because we, as breeders, often favor the more recessive traits because they're Very Good Tools in our programs and because, being so recessive, it's less likely a casual breeding would happen to expose it.

If you think about it, however, that actually means the most recessive traits would tend to become "common" because of our preferences, those with high frequency in starters would be "common" due to that frequency, and the actually "rare" examples seen in the wild are most likely to be those "middling dominance" traits which fall between those two extremes.

[Liriel Garnet]

(04-07-2012 08:29 AM)Sara Franco Wrote:  I'm wondering if the Chateau Cat - Cocoa & White No. 2 is very rare or what, It is not on Saga's documents although she is covering almost everything (Big hug to her) and I haven't seen any in the markets (of course I didn't look in every shop)
I checked the kitty cat of the month March and I found that only 3 had the fur!

It is an extremely cute fur, that's why I'm wondering

I have a bundle of those furs from some of my Christmas kitties. As I recall, it's not very recessive at all, maybe around bengal sorrel area. I'd have to analyze the breedouts further to say anything more definitive. I'm not a fan of this fur, so I didn't breed it out very much.

Also, what Tad says is very true, about recessive not necessarily equaling rare. I find Ody Sublime much harder to maintain than Ody Rainbow in a line, simply because I know my rainbows are pure, some of the sublimes have rainbow hiding behind them and that will come out about 1/2 the time. I've spent a month trying to pull a morning glory eye out of a cat showing morning glory, but she keeps throwing her hidden prism. It's all about luck sometimes.

[Sara Franco]

(04-07-2012 09:35 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  There is "rare" and then there is "recessive" ..

Saga's charts say NOTHING about "rare" .. which is the relative frequency at which one might find the example. That frequency is controlled outside the breeding process by factors such as when the trait was released, which starters (if any) might contain it as a breedable trait, the probabilities for those starters to do so, and whether players like it and want more examples of that trait.

Saga's charts are about "recessive" .. which is the patterns of hiding and exposing the trait while breeding. While they are a great tool for guiding our breeding programs, they say nothing at all about where, or whether, one can find the trait "in the wild" or whether others would value the trait should we produce more examples of it.

The confusion arises because we, as breeders, often favor the more recessive traits because they're Very Good Tools in our programs and because, being so recessive, it's less likely a casual breeding would happen to expose it.

If you think about it, however, that actually means the most recessive traits would tend to become "common" because of our preferences, those with high frequency in starters would be "common" due to that frequency, and the actually "rare" examples seen in the wild are most likely to be those "middling dominance" traits which fall between those two extremes.

Thanks for the info but what I meant when i mentioned Saga's charts is that the fur wasn't bred enough to know where it falls on the charts and I guessed that this means it is kinda rare because not many breed it.

---

(04-07-2012 12:14 PM)Liriel Garnet Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 08:29 AM)Sara Franco Wrote:  I'm wondering if the Chateau Cat - Cocoa & White No. 2 is very rare or what, It is not on Saga's documents although she is covering almost everything (Big hug to her) and I haven't seen any in the markets (of course I didn't look in every shop)
I checked the kitty cat of the month March and I found that only 3 had the fur!

It is an extremely cute fur, that's why I'm wondering

I have a bundle of those furs from some of my Christmas kitties. As I recall, it's not very recessive at all, maybe around bengal sorrel area. I'd have to analyze the breedouts further to say anything more definitive. I'm not a fan of this fur, so I didn't breed it out very much.

Also, what Tad says is very true, about recessive not necessarily equaling rare. I find Ody Sublime much harder to maintain than Ody Rainbow in a line, simply because I know my rainbows are pure, some of the sublimes have rainbow hiding behind them and that will come out about 1/2 the time. I've spent a month trying to pull a morning glory eye out of a cat showing morning glory, but she keeps throwing her hidden prism. It's all about luck sometimes.

I haven't seen the fur live yet but the picture of he kitty of the month caught my heart and yes I have some kitties passing the hidden always when I want the visible hehe, stubborn ones!

Are not you selling one of the Chat. Cocoa & White No. 2 you have? I still can't be sure if I will like it live or not but I loved the picture.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I know Cocoa & White No. 2 is a newer chateau cat just as the Cream & White this might be also a reason they aren't seen that often.

[Saga Felix]

Chateau cats seem to be extremely under-estimated, and not many breed for them at all. Why, I have no clue. Many of them are rather cute... But it has been like this since I started in KittyCatS, and now even the newer chateau-cats are getting hard to find anywhere.

[Tad Carlucci]

My recommendation:

Sometimes you need to Punt.

Forget the Rainbow. Proceed with more dominant eyes. It may take a bit longer but you can end up with better results.

Cross the sublime with a dominant eye having a known recessive between the two. (Water over Fire, for example .. I'll use Fire to mean that middle value from here on ...) Look for Fire output. It will be either Fire over Sublime or Fire over the recessive from the Sublime. Crank that pair producing box after box. Once you have three boxes, pop to get a mating pair and start them breeding. As you get more boxes, pop, until you get more pairs cooking.

You don't know the fourth gene but you'll find it and, being more recessive than Sublime, you'll probably want it!

Generating pair: Water [Fire] crossing with Sublime [Sublime or better].

Each box output is 50/50 odds to show Fire. Menagerie Water outputs to help defray costs and reduce clutter, frustration, and temptation.

Each Fire box is 50/50 odds to carry Sublime and 50/50 odds to carry [Sublime or better].

Each sibling-to-sibling pairing from those boxes is 75/25 odds favoring Fire over either Sublime or [Sublime or better].

If Sublime results, it is 50/50 odds to be True Pure Sublime and 50/50 odds to be a repeat of the original generating Sublime hiding [Sublime or better].

If [Sublime or better] results, and is Sublime, your 75/25 odds above are actually 50/50.

If [Sublime or better] results, and is NOT Sublime, it is 1/1 odds to be True Pure of that fourth gene. Joy!

[Liriel Garnet]

(04-07-2012 12:50 PM)Sara Franco Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 09:35 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  There is "rare" and then there is "recessive" ..

Saga's charts say NOTHING about "rare" .. which is the relative frequency at which one might find the example. That frequency is controlled outside the breeding process by factors such as when the trait was released, which starters (if any) might contain it as a breedable trait, the probabilities for those starters to do so, and whether players like it and want more examples of that trait.

Saga's charts are about "recessive" .. which is the patterns of hiding and exposing the trait while breeding. While they are a great tool for guiding our breeding programs, they say nothing at all about where, or whether, one can find the trait "in the wild" or whether others would value the trait should we produce more examples of it.

The confusion arises because we, as breeders, often favor the more recessive traits because they're Very Good Tools in our programs and because, being so recessive, it's less likely a casual breeding would happen to expose it.

If you think about it, however, that actually means the most recessive traits would tend to become "common" because of our preferences, those with high frequency in starters would be "common" due to that frequency, and the actually "rare" examples seen in the wild are most likely to be those "middling dominance" traits which fall between those two extremes.

Thanks for the info but what I meant when i mentioned Saga's charts is that the fur wasn't bred enough to know where it falls on the charts and I guessed that this means it is kinda rare because not many breed it.

---

(04-07-2012 12:14 PM)Liriel Garnet Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 08:29 AM)Sara Franco Wrote:  I'm wondering if the Chateau Cat - Cocoa & White No. 2 is very rare or what, It is not on Saga's documents although she is covering almost everything (Big hug to her) and I haven't seen any in the markets (of course I didn't look in every shop)
I checked the kitty cat of the month March and I found that only 3 had the fur!

It is an extremely cute fur, that's why I'm wondering

I have a bundle of those furs from some of my Christmas kitties. As I recall, it's not very recessive at all, maybe around bengal sorrel area. I'd have to analyze the breedouts further to say anything more definitive. I'm not a fan of this fur, so I didn't breed it out very much.

Also, what Tad says is very true, about recessive not necessarily equaling rare. I find Ody Sublime much harder to maintain than Ody Rainbow in a line, simply because I know my rainbows are pure, some of the sublimes have rainbow hiding behind them and that will come out about 1/2 the time. I've spent a month trying to pull a morning glory eye out of a cat showing morning glory, but she keeps throwing her hidden prism. It's all about luck sometimes.

I haven't seen the fur live yet but the picture of he kitty of the month caught my heart and yes I have some kitties passing the hidden always when I want the visible hehe, stubborn ones!

Are not you selling one of the Chat. Cocoa & White No. 2 you have? I still can't be sure if I will like it live or not but I loved the picture.

I apologize most profusely. I have the grey and white 2's. I don't breed the chateau's at all, so I tend to confuse them.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I adore the chateau cats:-)
And Grey & White I think are so cute but all chateau's I think are cool and as for breeding a nice mid range to breed with.


Cat Cuddles Teddybear by SL Kayleigh McMillan, on Flickr

[Liriel Garnet]

(04-08-2012 11:42 AM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  I adore the chateau cats:-)
And Grey & White I think are so cute but all chateau's I think are cool and as for breeding a nice mid range to breed with.


Cat Cuddles Teddybear by SL Kayleigh McMillan, on Flickr

And I'm one that dislikes most of the chateau's visually, which is why I don't breed them. The few I don't actively dislike (I've sworn to kick any cat that gives me a pink and white, for example, straight to oblivion -- but that's my choice, I know there are those who adore the pink and whites), I don't care about, so.... I leave it to those who love the furs to breed those.

Personally, I breed Bengals, which aren't particularly popular unless they're snows (which I *don't* breed because I think the other three are MUCH prettier), Russian blacks, and Oci's (I got my Cinn/Silver's set, still working on tawnies and choccys). I have been breeding with the aby lilacs, but I think they're going away pretty quick. They're more trouble than they're worth cause every box i get from them with the traits i want showing lilac births a boy pretty much LOL, so I'm taking the boxes I have and sending the live ones to kitty playground as soon as they have their boxes this weekend.

With so many furs, it's become important to pick and choose what I like. I keep other furs that have traits I want to work back into my main lines only until I have those traits. I heavily suspect that in the near future, a lot (if they haven't already) will specialize, either in certain traits on 'don't care' furs, or in certain furs, or even in certain combos, simply because of the sheer number of choices.

That said, if I see anyone breeding or selling the chateau coco & white 2's, I'll post something to the OP.

---

(04-07-2012 07:39 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  My recommendation:

Sometimes you need to Punt.

Forget the Rainbow. Proceed with more dominant eyes. It may take a bit longer but you can end up with better results.

Cross the sublime with a dominant eye having a known recessive between the two. (Water over Fire, for example .. I'll use Fire to mean that middle value from here on ...) Look for Fire output. It will be either Fire over Sublime or Fire over the recessive from the Sublime. Crank that pair producing box after box. Once you have three boxes, pop to get a mating pair and start them breeding. As you get more boxes, pop, until you get more pairs cooking.

You don't know the fourth gene but you'll find it and, being more recessive than Sublime, you'll probably want it!

Generating pair: Water [Fire] crossing with Sublime [Sublime or better].

Each box output is 50/50 odds to show Fire. Menagerie Water outputs to help defray costs and reduce clutter, frustration, and temptation.

Each Fire box is 50/50 odds to carry Sublime and 50/50 odds to carry [Sublime or better].

Each sibling-to-sibling pairing from those boxes is 75/25 odds favoring Fire over either Sublime or [Sublime or better].

If Sublime results, it is 50/50 odds to be True Pure Sublime and 50/50 odds to be a repeat of the original generating Sublime hiding [Sublime or better].

If [Sublime or better] results, and is Sublime, your 75/25 odds above are actually 50/50.

If [Sublime or better] results, and is NOT Sublime, it is 1/1 odds to be True Pure of that fourth gene. Joy!

If this was meant for me, I actually did that *chuckles*. I've found it much easier to pull a trait into a line via this method than trying to pull it with more recessive and then breed them up to 9t, and I also ensure I'm getting a fur I like. I'm currently pairing two 9t kitties both hiding sublime, one with grass and one with key lime, this way I know when I get my sublimes on my glittery black Russians, they're pure. *grins*