Menagerie & Supply & Demand

[Ivy Norsk]

Both Amber Icestron and Devilness have asked that I start a thread on Menagerie so I've copied my post from the thread where this came up. I hope that it is helpful. This kind of thing has been discussed before - as so many of these topics have. And I've actually suggested LE menagerie editions before, but the new twist this time was to suggest that the number of boxes required be low.

Ivy Wrote:I'm all for being realistic about the market. Some kitties Are worth more than others. I tend to look at quality of whiskers when shopping; others may look at other things depending on their projects.
The fundamental problem is that there are just too darn many cats on the grid. Nobody wants to menagerie tons of kitties that they've poured their lindens into. But the problem will not get better until the supply is shrunk to fit the demand.

There needs to be a HUGE incentive to menagerie cats. (Current math of 20L per box is not very compelling.) The market will not improve until there is a giant bonfire of cats. I know that sounds gross. But the market won't get better without it. People spend a lot of money to buy those limited editions. They are willing to put out to get them. I really think it would be worthwhile to have limited edition menagerie cats. Create an urgency to menagerie cats. So that people Have to Menagerie cats RIGHT NOW, or they won't be able to GET that Menagerie cat. I think that nothing short of that will take the cats off the grid. A side-effect of that - and a good one - will be that some retired traits could become genuinely more rare through such an action. And what a mind-blowing effect there would be if a trait actually went extinct. That would make the market move. People would start buying retired traits. It would make the wheel turn.

Now, digging a little deeper into what the mechanics should be for the limited editions: many of the cats on the grid are in the hands of smaller breeders... not bigger breeders. And the smaller breeders don't have enough cats in total to make it worthwhile to turn in cats for menagerie. So those limited editions shouldn't require a huge number of cats. So if the LE menagerie cost is low, but the time available is also short, it may work. In other words, I'm suggesting making menagerie LEs that are relatively easy to get, but you have to get them RIGHT AWAY. Do it in spurts or sprints.

Your thoughts?

[Devilness Chant]

I'm dead tired, it's late, and I have to get up early...sigh...lol But I just wanted to give my thanks for starting this thread and I hope we can all come up with constructive ideas like yours that may perk KC's interests. (hint hint) lol

Sweet dreams and happy breeding.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

I think the KC team should figure out how many breeding cats the average breeder has. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them to do. Then base how many boxes you need to menagerie to get a tiger or whatever on the average. I also think they should increase the K$ you get per box, even if it's only to be used for a tiger. I mean they made a special little box to drop jewels in, why can't they make a box or something to send to menagerie those boxes you want to count toward your tiger? That way if you were a large breeder and wanted the K$ for kibble or something you could get the standard 20L equivalent, but for a tiger maybe it could just be X amount of boxes or cats? Just some ideas... still thinking on this whole mess.

[Icestron Resident]

I think this is a phenomenal idea - both for clearing the grid of [dormant] kitties as well as the notion of a limited edition tiger.

I remember full well the excitement at "jade eye" lol.

still love jade eye actually. mmm. lets see - menagerie tigers - there is the white one, the bengal, the disco one -- perhaps its time for a bluish green one - a waternymph menagerie tiger.

or something.

This is a great post - thank you for making it.

(05-28-2015 08:15 PM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  Both Amber Icestron and Devilness have asked that I start a thread on Menagerie so I've copied my post from the thread where this came up. I hope that it is helpful. This kind of thing has been discussed before - as so many of these topics have. And I've actually suggested LE menagerie editions before, but the new twist this time was to suggest that the number of boxes required be low.

Ivy Wrote:I'm all for being realistic about the market. Some kitties Are worth more than others. I tend to look at quality of whiskers when shopping; others may look at other things depending on their projects.
The fundamental problem is that there are just too darn many cats on the grid. Nobody wants to menagerie tons of kitties that they've poured their lindens into. But the problem will not get better until the supply is shrunk to fit the demand.

There needs to be a HUGE incentive to menagerie cats. (Current math of 20L per box is not very compelling.) The market will not improve until there is a giant bonfire of cats. I know that sounds gross. But the market won't get better without it. People spend a lot of money to buy those limited editions. They are willing to put out to get them. I really think it would be worthwhile to have limited edition menagerie cats. Create an urgency to menagerie cats. So that people Have to Menagerie cats RIGHT NOW, or they won't be able to GET that Menagerie cat. I think that nothing short of that will take the cats off the grid. A side-effect of that - and a good one - will be that some retired traits could become genuinely more rare through such an action. And what a mind-blowing effect there would be if a trait actually went extinct. That would make the market move. People would start buying retired traits. It would make the wheel turn.

Now, digging a little deeper into what the mechanics should be for the limited editions: many of the cats on the grid are in the hands of smaller breeders... not bigger breeders. And the smaller breeders don't have enough cats in total to make it worthwhile to turn in cats for menagerie. So those limited editions shouldn't require a huge number of cats. So if the LE menagerie cost is low, but the time available is also short, it may work. In other words, I'm suggesting making menagerie LEs that are relatively easy to get, but you have to get them RIGHT AWAY. Do it in spurts or sprints.

Your thoughts?

[Etierre Bonde]

GREAT IDEA, both the menagerie and Amber's idea of a new Tigre. I will be working (and work it is!) on my third tiger soon, when I have the time (have the boxes, np) and not real excited about the bengal, might just get another size of disco or white. Would love it if they had a shade. My choice would be Ilume. They are rather plain in that dept and it would look great and be more appealing.

And menag LEs are a super idea. yes, we do need to clean the grid, and I can think of some certain furs and eyes that gotta go or at least the number of them. They are SO inbred into the grid as a whole, they are very hard to avoid.

[Lixy Byron]

Like the idea! )

i vote for a Menagerie Megapuss Vitamin or a Menagerie Teacup Vitamin: save your Menagerie K$ and then turn your special cat in a Mega or a Teacup (or any other special size too!!)

it's time that a new Menagerie cat or else come to us

[Lostime Resident]

A few new menagerie cats would be great and would for sure help to reduce the amount of box that is growing in my cattery and in sl.
It would set something new for older breeders and collectors to attaine.

[Devilness Chant]

(05-29-2015 06:23 AM)Lixy Byron Wrote:  Like the idea! )

i vote for a Menagerie Megapuss Vitamin or a Menagerie Teacup Vitamin: save your Menagerie K$ and then turn your special cat in a Mega or a Teacup (or any other special size too!!)

it's time that a new Menagerie cat or else come to us

I really love all these ideas. LE menagerie kitties and size vits. I would also love maybe a one time shot to get permapets with K$.

I know I harp on the permapet vits. But it's Callies fault! She made too many darn cute kitties that I want to keep without having to feed!

[jwenting Resident]

The problem with the "market" is that there are hundreds or thousands of people thinking they can strike it rich selling kittens, calculating they need to price a kitten at say 2000L$ and then finding it doesn't sell and complain that "the market is flooded".
Guess what? The market will ALWAYS be flooded as long as each cat can produce 7 boxes (rounded down, it's 7.5 in theory).
A small breeder with 7 breeding pairs will produce 1 box per day on average. That's 365 boxes per year, at the "expense" of 6 boxes per year, for about 359 boxes added per year for that small breeder.
I don't know how many breeders there are, but seeing the number of stalls out there on the secondary markets there are thousands, most of them in that category of small breeders.
So there are at least about a million boxes birthed per year. And those small breeders if they purchase every cat they birth rather than taking them from their own stockpile only purchase less than 20.000 boxes per year.
To make demand meet supply then, 98% of all produced boxes would need to end up in the menagerie (give or take, there's always some sales to newcomers, collectors, people who're not breeding or expanding their operations of course).

Hands up to all breeders who menagerie 98 out of every 100 boxes their cats produce rather than stockpiling them in the hope they may be able to sell or use them in the future please...
Would decreasing the cost of the menagerie cats bring us closer to that goal?
Maybe, but probably not. Unless the menagerie reward cats are no-trans and don't breed they just replace for many breeders some or all of the cats they now buy to inject new blood into their lines, which is the majority of sales on the secondary markets (and especially the auctions).
If they're trans and frequently change (so the supply of each is extremely limited) they would end up as collector's items, most people keeping them boxed and the boxes ending up as showcases in stores and auctions at ridiculous prices, with the sellers complaining that nobody's buying them and wannabe buyers complaining that they're too expensive and supplies should be increased to bring prices down.

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(05-29-2015 03:08 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I think the KC team should figure out how many breeding cats the average breeder has. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them to do.

hmm, the data is there in the pedigree page for every owner who's registered on the website.
But what percentage of breeders is registered on the website?
And not every cat of breeding age is breeding. I've one in the cattery for example who's not yet retired but isn't breeding. I'm not interested in breeding him but don't want to menagerie him.

I've a friend who I gave some cats to, she wanted only females as she explicitly didn't want to breed, wanted them only as cats (she didn't know you can turn breeding off).

I'm sure there are a lot of cats like that out there.

The number of breeding pairs per breeder is also bound to be highly variable, both at a specific moment in time and per breeder over time.
At peak I had about a dozen pairs for example, right now I only have 1 pair. Decided to reduce the number of cats to reduce the expense in food when I lost my rl job, and no real plans to increase it again now that I'm employed once again (I birthed one more pair, to continue to have a breeding pair when the current breeders retire, but that's it for numbers).

So just the number of breeding age cats out there isn't an indication of the number of boxes produced per day/week per breeder.

Tailoring the price of menagerie cats to be more achievable to small breeders is a nice idea, but I doubt it's as simple a thing to do as you think.

[Ivy Norsk]

Once upon a time, somewhere on this forum, I remember Tad saying that the average breeder had 12 live cats. I don't know how he got the data and I don't know if it would still hold today. It would be good to know. Still, that would put one in the shooting range of the average person getting a cat a day as Jwenting has said.
I think that any reduction in supply is good. I think it is probably not achievable to have supply meet demand precisely. But I also think that it isn't a high stakes thing to try. Ultimately, who cares if it's precisely tailored as long as it moves in the right direction? Maybe Headquarters should try varying the number of boxes charged in order to find a sweetspot (though I'm not sure how they would measure success exactly in a specific way). 98% menagerie rate?- that isn't going to happen, people love their cats too much - nor do I think that we need to see a total turnover of kitties every year. But any improvement would be good.

And as jwenting says, there's a psychology of new breeders involved. People get into kittycats, put cats out for sale (not necessarily for 2000L), and then realize that cats with gen traits don't sell. I can remember being excited with my first little cart of 6Ts. Eventually I DID menagerie every single one of those cats. It's a very common learning curve that definitely affects what we see in markets and experienced breeders just need to be very gentle and patient with newer breeders in this stage.

The thing about all of it is that it would require significant new work at HQ to produce the LEs.