Please Be Carefull !!

[anna Acanthus]

OK i get you now !

Well, sure a hidden can remain hidden through quite a few generations and it has always been the hidden trait down throughout the generations, i've had some cool surprises like this myself.

As for the line - So when two cats breed, they both pass either their hidden or visible trait, and the kitten will have the more dominant of those two traits as the shown trait, and the less dominant as the hidden trait. - i read this as in the case of two different traits breeding together - the dom will show and the rec. will be hidden - but not as in my example case : a shown can pull a shown and for me this statement doesn't mean that the OS must be hiding one of it's parents more reccessive hiddens : they pass either their shown or hidden traits and so Black can just as well be the hidden as Flame could be.

I know i don't say IMHO when i spout but it's there and if i'm wrong about this well it sure won't be the first time, or the last

Anyhow the essential point about my post is that cases like these cannot be guaranteed to carry the parent's hidden.

[Khea Karas]

(02-24-2012 01:03 PM)anna acanthus Wrote:  OK i get you now !

Well, sure a hidden can remain hidden through quite a few generations and it has always been the hidden trait down throughout the generations, i've had some cool surprises like this myself.

As for the line - So when two cats breed, they both pass either their hidden or visible trait, and the kitten will have the more dominant of those two traits as the shown trait, and the less dominant as the hidden trait. - i read this as in the case of two different traits breeding together - the dom will show and the rec. will be hidden - but not as in my example case : a shown can pull a shown and for me this statement doesn't mean that the OS must be hiding one of it's parents more reccessive hiddens : they pass either their shown or hidden traits and so Black can just as well be the hidden as Flame could be.

I know i don't say IMHO when i spout but it's there and if i'm wrong about this well it sure won't be the first time, or the last

Anyhow the essential point about my post is that cases like these cannot be guaranteed to carry the parent's hidden.

I dont claim to be an expert lol...perhaps i misinterpret the info myself...in which case Saga will be on my back quick smart to correct me lol.

The one thing that comes to mind though is that the hidden is ALWAYS the recessive one, otherwise the dominant fur wouldnt "win" during the breed and therefore be shown. A cat has to have a hidden & shown per trait, and each can only come from one or the other parent.

Then if you have 2 black russian (dominant) cats, who have one flame (recessive) parent each, then it would mean once the black is shown the next recessive fur in line would be the flame or something better.

It's an interesting discussion

[Saga Felix]

Ok - I see that I need to clarify that fact-list! ;-)

Currently it says:
-The visible trait is ALWAYS more dominant than the hidden trait.
-So when two cats breed, they both pass either their hidden or visible trait, and the kitten will have the more dominant of those two traits as the shown trait, and the less dominant as the hidden trait.

But something like this should be added:
-This rule is void in the cases where shown & hidden traits are THE SAME, in which case that trait will be "truly pure" (As opposed to the "pure" that is sometimes used to describe cases where two cats w. same fur/eye/trait are bred, and the kitten is then called "pure", even though it MAY have mom's or dad's hidden trait hiding)

I hope this makes sense - I sometimes find it hard to clarify against all possible misinterpretations in a few lines, but I try my best ;-)

Saga

[anna Acanthus]

Well here's a screenshot of the OS in question :

   

Now i say it could be hiding flame but equally could be hiding just black so no way of guaranteeing hidden flame if i was going to sell it.
Khea reckons it must be hiding flame (unless she misunderstood exactly what i was getting at) and this is the basis of what we've been nit-picking about for the last few posts

I like to be right of course but in this case i rather hope i'm wrong as it'd mean a whole load of other sexy boxes i can open or sell

[Liriel Garnet]

(02-24-2012 11:48 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  So in fact only the person who writes the random lines for the server can really tell us exactly the % of chances of obtaining a "pure" in this precise case, if you wouldn't mind KCA

Actually the chances depend on the parents. If you have two parents that show and hide the same (for example two X hiding Y), then the chances are 50 percent, as follows:
25% chance pure X
50% chance mixed XY
25% chance pure Y

If they share only one shown/hidden between them (for example X hiding Y and Z hiding X), then the only possibility for a pure trait is the 25% chance of getting XX.

If they share none, then there's no chance of getting a pure trait.

One thing to bear in mind, in the first example, if you assume X is dominant to Y, then if you see the Y trait, you know it's pure. If you see the X trait, then there's 33 percent chance it's pure and 67% chance it's mixed. This is actually a good thing for us as breeders, because that means, for example, if both parents hide a desirable trait and the box shows the more dominant trait, there's a 2/3 chance it's hiding the desirable one.

[anna Acanthus]

Well thanks Lyriel this time i didn't break out in a nervous rash when i saw those X, X and Z's.

Actually i thought the chances were more 1/2 for hiding flame but anyhow even with 2/3 i cannot say this box IS hiding flame , just COULD be.

This style of X Y breeding i'm not really happy with and only go for it when i have to try get new traits into a kitty and only have same furs to breed traits. With X,Y and Z one can be sure that if Y appears then Z is hidden though of course if X results then no way of knowing if Y or Z is hidden

Think i'll just go take a small lie-down anyway ...

[Nenya Eun]

One important thing : the hidden trait is not always the most recessive one, as Saga said : it can also be the same recessiveness (however that is spelled), hence the 'purity' of a cat.

Omega & Alpha both hide Siam Flame or more recessive, but their OS can hide either Black Russian or Siam Flame or more recessive.

[Saga Felix]

Just to confirm: What Anna, Liriel & Nenya writes is correct - the hidden trait can of course be the same as the shown, as I also wrote above. So, the kitten that Anna posted the pedigree-picture of has a statistic chance of exactly 66.6666% chance to be hiding Siamese Flame. -However, those damn 33.333% chance to NOT hide became true only TOO often in my cattery -So one can never be sure until it's bred out.

-And Liriel's mathematics is also correct, assuming KittyCats are based on straight-forward mendelian inheritance. (And no "extra chance for hidden" etc. is incorporated into the scripts - which I am pretty sure is not the case, but just this disclaimer to be on the safe side )

Saga

[Khea Karas]

(02-25-2012 10:35 AM)Saga Felix Wrote:  Just to confirm: What Anna, Liriel & Nenya writes is correct - the hidden trait can of course be the same as the shown, as I also wrote above. So, the kitten that Anna posted the pedigree-picture of has a statistic chance of exactly 66.6666% chance to be hiding Siamese Flame. -However, those damn 33.333% chance to NOT hide became true only TOO often in my cattery -So one can never be sure until it's bred out.

-And Liriel's mathematics is also correct, assuming KittyCats are based on straight-forward mendelian inheritance. (And no "extra chance for hidden" etc. is incorporated into the scripts - which I am pretty sure is not the case, but just this disclaimer to be on the safe side )

Saga

ok so I was wrong it seems. Kudos to Anna

To Saga, Maybe an adjustment of your statement like:

The visible trait is ALWAYS more dominant than the hidden trait. This is void when hidden and shown traits are the same in cases of pure traits.

So when two cats breed, they both pass either their hidden or visible trait, and the kitten will have the more dominant of those two traits as the shown trait, and the less dominant as the hidden trait. With the exception of breeding two IDENTICAL traits together; as the chance of passing the hidden & shown trait as the same (a pure trait) becomes possible.

???
Just my thoughts

[Saga Felix]

Great idea, Khea - I will add that. Sounds better than I could have explained it - thanks! <3