Watch out for Impossible claims about what is hidden

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(08-07-2014 01:20 PM)Lostime Resident Wrote:  The sad thing is I saw the cat as well and did not IM the persone who was selling the cat, I think the persone did not know better and if we see things like it, we should help them to learn and know better.

Some days I just want to be by myself, it was one of those days!

Im sorry I did not help!

Very recognizable and nothing to be sorry about :-)

[Ivy Norsk]

It's a very touchy thing and people don't always want help, especially from people they don't know at random times. I think that most people in the community are helpful and want to be available to help at the drop of a hat in chat or whatever, but this is most often useful when a person knows they need it and wants it. Otherwise they may not be receptive and even hostile.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(08-09-2014 09:33 AM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  It's a very touchy thing and people don't always want help, especially from people they don't know at random times. I think that most people in the community are helpful and want to be available to help at the drop of a hat in chat or whatever, but this is most often useful when a person knows they need it and wants it. Otherwise they may not be receptive and even hostile.

Exactly Ivy!
Sometimes people feel lectured so it is a delicate matter on how to approach a person who does a claim which is not rightful.
Sadly there are people who do it on purpose too :/
Luckely most people do not know better but that isn't to say they will all be positive towards an IM explaning them why a cat can't hide something.

[Charmayne Brentley]

If you say anything to the person, they completely ignore you and continue naming and advertising cats this way. Sad. When I see one of their cats, I make a note to myself, pass this one up.

[Arwen Swordthain]

Unfortunately we see a lot of this in the secondary markets and bidboards. I have on occasion IM'd the seller to correct what is often a mistake based on lack of knowledge.
There are some breeders out there that label their cats in a misleading fashion i.e. hides xyz when xyz was visible on a grandparent. Yes it may hide xyz as that trait is recessive to the shown but its only a chance at hiding and often that depends on which side said trait hides on and which side the shown came from. I steer clear of these sellers completely, they should know better.
Sorry if I have repeated anything already said I confess I only scanned the first page of replies.
But definately Sellers check before you make claims you aren't sure about, other breeders are always happy to help, and buyers check check and triple check pedigrees and saga charts to be sure you know what you are buying.

[Tad Carlucci]

Yep
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THEY'RE BACK!!!
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This becomes a real problem every few whiles.

A couple days ago Charm sold a Confetti to a new breeder who had purchased a very pretty (non-Confetti) cat from someone else.

Unfortunately, the new breeder believed the claim in the name 'Confetti Background' actually meant there was a chance Confetti would appear. And, yes, checking the parents, one WAS a Confetti. So the claim was, technically, true, it lead to the false impression that the Confetti background actually meant anything.

When talking to her, Charm, became aware the new person had been defrauded. So, she took pity on her and gave her another, older, Confetti to breed with the one she'd just sold. Hopefully, that will offset the ill feelings being new and immediately defrauded would engender.

Now, you can give people the benefit of the doubt and presume it was lack of knowledge, or a simple misunderstanding. But it happens so often, especially with certain players, that it really can't be that. It's FRAUD, people. So let's stop dancing around and call it that.

[Emilia Darkwatch]

I think in the majority of cases it is innocent mistakes being made. People do not understand what "hiding" really means, and so may, even if they know one fur is dominant to the other, believe the more dominant fur is "hidden". However, there are certainly a few who consistently, and some for years, suggest a cat can hide something it just does not. Some of this minority most certainly do it in order to sell a cat, sometimes for much higher than normal based upon the faux claim it hides some new and shiny new trait which they are fully aware it does not or even CANNOT, based on rec/dom info. In the most extreme case I encountered, a seller was regularly making claims about cats hiding new traits when there was absolutely zero evidence to prove or suggest they did. I spoke to them, nicely, and they 100% acknowledged they merely hoped the cat hid it, but there was no proof. Even so, they refused to change the cat names to different ones, in full knowledge and admission that what we discussed was true. I guess it just doesn't bother some people as long as they sell the cat, which is a shame, but how it can go

I think it will always happen... unfortunately... and all we can really do is to look thoroughly before we make a purchase and try to educate newer breeders about things, which I hope the forums do. Thankfully it is the minority who do anything negative, and most cat folks are lovely and honest, and very happy to show pedigrees

[Ellen Ireland]

I think we've all made occasional mistakes about what could be hiding (especially with new traits that are only tentatively placed on the Saga charts). However, when someone makes an absolute assertion that "this cat hides X" when it is impossible, I agree that there is reason to be wary of that seller. I can't calculate the mathematical odds the way one friend does of what a cat might be hiding, so I try to say only "it is possible that this cat might hide X" or if it's absolutely certain that it cannot, then "unfortunately the X is now lost."

It's interesting looking back to this thread when it started in 2014 when Bengal Black was a "hot" fur that everyone wanted. I started in KittyCats in September 2015, so I don't remember that fur ever being in demand, although I do agree that it is a pretty one. I still shake my head over how fast new traits, or traits believed to be recessive, go down in value when they are no longer new or not as recessive as we thought.