Hm, can we "force" or "challenge" a cat to give its best?
In theory no, I guess ... in theory it "throws" its hidden or shown traits via coin toss. But in practice ... hmm ... "this kitty didn't like Mate X but she loves Mate Y" ... or ... "She never passed her hidden until I clobbered her with this trait bomb."
What do you think?
I know there area at least 2 schools on how to deal with a starter ... one, give it a knockout mate with all the latest whiskers, tails and ears, and it will yield up its secrets fast . Another ... give it a a gentle mild-mannered mate with lots of mild-mannered traits, and then if anything at all shows in the offspring, that's worth investigating.
One thing I have notice about myself is a disparity between what i believe in theory, and what i try to do in practice. In theory, I believe that a poorly-traited cat hiding the latest whiskers but showing mysterious ... should be mated with a well-traited cat showing plush whiskers ... so that the offspring will be hiding the good traits of the plushy parent, and it will be possible to know whether the dreamy-hider has thrown its good trait. Then take that offspring and put it with a full sibling and wait about 4 to 6 weeks ... etc.
But in practice, I want to encourage that cat by hitting it with big guns. Give it the best I've got, challenge it.
One delusional theory i had was that ... when they tell us the Random Number Generator--the trait-spinner -- is random, that's true, but maybe it is like a character-roller in an RP game ... where you roll for points on Experience, Wisdom, Strength, Dexterity, etc ... and then after you roll, you have a few points left over to allocate... Okay, so in my delusional theory as applied to Kitties ... those leftover points would randomly be allocated to size or recessivity.
Make any sense?
It seemed like kitties that just had exuberance to burn, but no genes to burn it on, would sometimes make me a sweet size.
I'm just wondering if you all think that challenging a kitty by giving it a super recessively-traited partner i s ... effective, --even able to "force" revelation -- or if you think that the kitty throws its traits randomly no matter what partner happens to be matched with it.
The question is risk vs reward. To be honest, the odds are your starter does NOT have much to brag about. But it might. The risk is wasting a breeding cycle where that supper-dupper partner could be off doing something better than discovering that your starter hides Siamese Seal. The reward would be getting Aby Dark Chocolate from an Aby Dark Chocolate partner (so your starter is either hiding that or you're primed to discover a new most-recessive).
Part of the breeding puzzle is using your available resources effectively. You only have so many L$, can only cuddle so many cats, have so many prims available, and, of course, you only have the cats you have on hand. The best breeding pattern in the world won't work if you aint got what it takes.
When I'm working with starters, I gradually fill in the hiddens that I've found into the online pedigree and what I've noticed is that the hidden "cat behind the cat" is generally very good looking. Everything seems to match nicely. Which sometimes makes me look at the hidden starter stats and think, hmmmm, that fur would look very good with dark chocolate whiskers... I wonder if there are those whiskers hidden there, which would make me more likely to pair the starter with a latte-whisker cat. (Most of my 9T starter mates happen to be 2 tone, plush whiskers, but I'm working to better that.)
To answer the question of "forcing" revelation, alas, no.
P.S. I'm an old D&D gamer and it was amusing to see your analogy of Experience, Wisdom, Strength...
(06-06-2014 06:03 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: The question is risk vs reward. To be honest, the odds are your starter does NOT have much to brag about. But it might. The risk is wasting a breeding cycle where that supper-dupper partner could be off doing something better than discovering that your starter hides Siamese Seal. The reward would be getting Aby Dark Chocolate from an Aby Dark Chocolate partner (so your starter is either hiding that or you're primed to discover a new most-recessive).
Part of the breeding puzzle is using your available resources effectively. You only have so many L$, can only cuddle so many cats, have so many prims available, and, of course, you only have the cats you have on hand. The best breeding pattern in the world won't work if you aint got what it takes.
Hahah, yes, my starters usually hide Chateau Cream and White. I guess I didn't mean to limit my question to starters at all ... I'm interested in seeing how people view the idea of countering a weak trait with an ultra-strong one -- or of using an ultra-strong trait to bring out a hidden.
In fact I "sat out" the Valentine's kitty round, and ... oh even Christmas. And Easter ... Taking on starters is expensive and can be unrewarding, unless you find the costumes themselves to be a nice reward. And I did attend some of Liriel Garnet's classes about starters -- how they are only guaranteed to be hiding 7 traits, and so on.
I'm just seeing 2 schools of thought re: bringing the best out of a weak cat. One is "Hit Me With YOur Best Shot," clobbering the cat with a standard : Foxie Salty with Odyssey Bellini eyes, Porcelain Shade, Shorty Tail, MOF ears and preferably some pretty great whiskers. The weaker cat cannot escape . But maybe then the weaker cat shudders and backs down and gets scared and hisses, and throws all its genesis attributes. The second is ... "Just give it the minimum that it needs so that you can tell if it has thrown its hidden trait or not ...then, breed together the ones that show that it was thrown ..." (the gentle way).
Maybe a picture example would make more sense? I'm attaching "Morrie's Pedigree." I got the mama late in life and she lacked many things, but was hiding swanky whiskers. I was happy that Lindy Lou was only showing Mysterious whiskers, giving lots of room to be able to tell if she "threw" the whisker shape. So ... following pretty much along Liriel Garnet's teachings, I put her with a male showing Plush whiskers. Then any baby showing plush or better would be hiding the swanky, right?
In earlier days i would maybe have tried to get her a mate with the best whiskers i have (currently light wave I guess, in my cattery). But then for the next generation i would be hard pressed to find something in between swanky and light wave ...
But then, Lindy Lou also had Genesis eyes. I kept thinking this mate i chose for her, Aspin, was not "powerful enough" that way -- with his pretty dominant Crystal Sun eyes. Some kind of impulse made me want to run out and buy Lindy Lou a mate with ... probably Odyssey Bellini.
Morrie's pedigree shows "the mild mannered way" -- the mate Aspin is 9 traited, but not a dynamo of whiskers or eyes. I wasn't expecting to "pull the whiskers" of Lindy Lou -- just to make a decent offspring and be able to tell if it was still hiding what i wanted. (I can't stand that "pull " term -- especially when talking of eyes!)
Reason tells me that the traits of a cat's mate do not affect what that cat "throws" during the coin toss (i.e., Lindy Lou would throw her genesis eye color, or not, regardless of her mate's eye color). Irrational urges, on the other hand, tempt me to take a cat like Lindy Lou and give it a mate with Blonde Light Wave Whiskers and Grotto Eyes, just to "encourage" her to come forth with the goods.
I hope that made clearer what i was trying to ask.
(06-06-2014 08:03 AM)Ivy Norsk Wrote: When I'm working with starters, I gradually fill in the hiddens that I've found into the online pedigree and what I've noticed is that the hidden "cat behind the cat" is generally very good looking. Everything seems to match nicely. Which sometimes makes me look at the hidden starter stats and think, hmmmm, that fur would look very good with dark chocolate whiskers... I wonder if there are those whiskers hidden there, which would make me more likely to pair the starter with a latte-whisker cat. (Most of my 9T starter mates happen to be 2 tone, plush whiskers, but I'm working to better that.)
To answer the question of "forcing" revelation, alas, no.
P.S. I'm an old D&D gamer and it was amusing to see your analogy of Experience, Wisdom, Strength...
Very cool, Ivy -- that you are actually finding inspiration as the mystery- kitty's traits are slowly unfolded / revealed. I can really see the value of doing as you suggest with starter mates -- maybe getting ones with more than 2 tone plush whiskers nowadays, especially as there have been so many interesting whisker colors and shapes discovered in the last year or two.
When we ask about how traits are rolled, we always hear "it's random," but there are so many ways of generating a series of random things. It would be fun if there were in fact "bonus points" that get rolled at the end ... applied maybe to size, or to boost one of the other random tosses.
Vrem Wrote:I'm just seeing 2 schools of thought re: bringing the best out of a weak cat. One is "Hit Me With YOur Best Shot," clobbering the cat with a standard : Foxie Salty with Odyssey Bellini eyes, Porcelain Shade, Shorty Tail, MOF ears and preferably some pretty great whiskers. The weaker cat cannot escape . But maybe then the weaker cat shudders and backs down and gets scared and hisses, and throws all its genesis attributes. The second is ... "Just give it the minimum that it needs so that you can tell if it has thrown its hidden trait or not ...then, breed together the ones that show that it was thrown ..." (the gentle way).
Sing to the cats. That's my advice. Use a Great Mate, but make sure the cats are not scared by singing to them. I sing to stuff all the time. Then the cats can talk to each other about how odd I am, but are probably not scared of each other. It's like an ice-breaker conversation for them.
Challenge them? Nah. Terrify them! Pull out a few hundred Meeroos, and make your kitties watch as you make Roo Stew. If that doesn't get their attention, nothing will!
Funny!
I know, but there are people out there who practice each of these methods and ... they do take themselves , if not me, seriously! (I know i know, still noob after 2 years of kittycats.)
Example: 4 trait cat from starter, hiding Puff tail and showing Frisky tail.
Method 1: Give it a mate with just-barely-better-than-frisky but no major flaws, preferably using kitty that has some traits you'd like to see on your puff-tailed outcome-kitty. Suppose the offspring now shows a Shorty tail (still hiding PUff), but now it's an 8T cat. Take that cat and put it with ... oh, stubby tail maybe (always assuming excellent mate). -- repeat until you get a boy and girl hider, then put those together. (ideally this boy and girl do not show the same tail?)
Method 2: Give it a mate with a posh tail. (But whyyyy??? does this encourage her to "throw" the puff tail? To me, this is the "terrrify them" method. All you're gonna get is offsprings with posh tails, but it makes it harder to tell, in later generations, if the puff tail is still hiding.) But a friend did explain at length to me that i should use posh tails for this. Seriously, this method is in use.
I'll try to put pictures in here. Here's my Puff Hider and her four children so far. http://gyazo.com/00d9440a0662e62ba7b54056c28e692b
So now, the idea would be to mate up Arnie Puff with Jokine Puff and ... sing to them until they happen to both throw their puff tail? Or, better, Arnie Puff with the one showing tiger curl. *Hums a tune about blenderizing meeroos ...* (gosh i have never had a meeroo so ... that would be hard to do.) http://gyazo.com/ef5026bd5f4002e44f3f34b59e09c964 <<-- Arnie's pedi (showing the mate I used for the 4T Magic Puff girl)
The one with the frisky tail is not going to be hiding Puff tail. The ones with Shorty tail are hiding it. And the one with tiger curl -- i did that by mistake but it still has "wiggle room" so that if someone else breeds this cat, they can use Swanky or Posh and still be able to tell if their offsprings are still hiding Puff.
I used Method 1 for this . (was lucky to be able to buy the cat and not have to raise 50 starters in order to find her).
Thanks given by:
06-16-2014, 10:20 AM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2014 10:22 AM by Tad Carlucci.)
Personally, I'd put the Tiger Curl girl with one of the Soft Fold boys. You'd still have a 1-in-4 chance of success, and a 1-in-4 chance of another Soft Fold box which must also be hiding Puff. Your rejects would be the 1-in-2 chance of a Tiger Curl (which could hide either Soft Fold or Puff).
Doing the Soft Fold boy and girl still gives you a 1-in-4 chance of success, but your 3-in-4 Soft Fold boxes will be unknowns (1-in-3 will be 'pure', 2-in-3 will hide Puff, but you can't tell which is whatch).
To be honest, with your 4 boxes, I'd probably do both. That gives you 2 chances a week. Which, time-wise, means it's the same as if you had even odds of success. That's trading money for time, which can be an advantage.
(06-16-2014 10:20 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: Personally, I'd put the Tiger Curl girl with one of the Soft Fold boys. You'd still have a 1-in-4 chance of success, and a 1-in-4 chance of another Soft Fold box which must also be hiding Puff. Your rejects would be the 1-in-2 chance of a Tiger Curl (which could hide either Soft Fold or Puff).
Doing the Soft Fold boy and girl still gives you a 1-in-4 chance of success, but your 3-in-4 Soft Fold boxes will be unknowns (1-in-3 will be 'pure', 2-in-3 will hide Puff, but you can't tell which is whatch).
To be honest, with your 4 boxes, I'd probably do both. That gives you 2 chances a week. Which, time-wise, means it's the same as if you had even odds of success. That's trading money for time, which can be an advantage.
Thanks so much, Tad -- for helping me think this one through.
