The 9T for 100L "bargain"

[Jackson Verlack]

I believe like any rl market there's always ups and downs to it, there's people putting quality before price and there's people just pricing to either sell fast or just for their own decided price. What is low to one might be pretty fair to another and Im sure we are all familiar with 0.99 $ clothes shops and midnight sales. Bottom line is they never destroy the market the way we think they do because this is temporarily and gone either too fast or closed in the end of day. I know how much my boxes are worth to me, how much work have I put into them and why they carry their own traits and -this- is all that matters to me, as breeder and buyer. Im type who looks for long established lines of particular traits and from particular sellers whom I know share my type of breeding thoughts.

But we also have to respect that not everyone is willing to do this, there's a good amount of breeders out there that have small amount of cats and simply sell boxes because they do not want to keep them. Why they price them for 100L it is a debate that neither side can be 100% sure, yet such sales will never endanger those whoa re here for breeding long lines of special projects.

Summer is always slow for anything except tourism, and since we aint breeding tourist destinations, Id not worry on my sales
Im taking this time to work on my projects so that when things pick up I have something to offer through auctions, fresh kittycats with some very set in "stone" traits and perhaps some new ones form Easter if Im lucky

[Ethereal Hurricane]

(06-01-2014 07:50 PM)Deer Thistle Wrote:  This isn't a new "trend" at all and it's always been this way.

I beg to differ! This morning when I got on Yahoo to check my email, this caught my eye:



Also, how did the media already catch wind of my marriage proposal to Kitten Longmeadow? Wtf news travels fast these days. At least it wasn't trending higher than Dave Grohl, I'd feel bad, he's a legend.

#100L9t@ethereal_hurricane@kittenlongmeadow#gratsonwedding

[Deer Thistle]

(06-01-2014 11:39 PM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  

(06-01-2014 07:50 PM)Deer Thistle Wrote:  This isn't a new "trend" at all and it's always been this way.

I beg to differ! This morning when I got on Yahoo to check my email, this caught my eye:



Also, how did the media already catch wind of my marriage proposal to Kitten Longmeadow? Wtf news travels fast these days. At least it wasn't trending higher than Dave Grohl, I'd feel bad, he's a legend.

#100L9t@ethereal_hurricane@kittenlongmeadow#gratsonwedding

LOL

(And why wasn't I invited to the wedding!? Kitten and Ethereal, I demand explanations!)

[LyricaBlues Resident]

(06-01-2014 11:10 PM)Jackson Verlack Wrote:  Im taking this time to work on my projects so that when things pick up I have something to offer through auctions, fresh kittycats with some very set in "stone" traits and perhaps some new ones form Easter if Im lucky

That's what I've been doing for the most part. Funny but whether 100 or 1000 nicely traited kitties, its equally as exciting when things begin to take shape we want. No matter what, with some careful selection of mates more than likely whatever you get will make you say "woo hoo".

Thanks for you input. I do like to hear other's thoughts!

[Luna1987 Resident]

For the few years I have been doing this, I have noticed the "Summer Slump" and it sucks but this is when i sell my extra collection kittys and stupid prices to feed my project kittes >< I hate doing it BUT it happens every year. I wounder if a "Summer Collection" would help or hurt... I know we ALL spend WAY too much on the collections already, but this may keep people interested in high triated cats for breeding against the collection.

[Deer Thistle]

(06-02-2014 12:46 PM)Luna1987 Resident Wrote:  For the few years I have been doing this, I have noticed the "Summer Slump" and it sucks but this is when i sell my extra collection kittys and stupid prices to feed my project kittes >< I hate doing it BUT it happens every year. I wounder if a "Summer Collection" would help or hurt... I know we ALL spend WAY too much on the collections already, but this may keep people interested in high triated cats for breeding against the collection.

I always thought of the RFL collection as the summer collection but I think the last release didn't feel so much like it as there wasn't variety, just the boy and girl. I hope this summer we get more variety like the Steampunk kitties from the year before..

Wouldn't be opposed to another summer release though, summer-themed cats would be so epic. *ducks before others oppose* I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A PALM TREE CAT. Just saying.

[Kitten Longmeadow]

(06-01-2014 11:47 PM)Deer Thistle Wrote:  

(06-01-2014 11:39 PM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  

(06-01-2014 07:50 PM)Deer Thistle Wrote:  This isn't a new "trend" at all and it's always been this way.

I beg to differ! This morning when I got on Yahoo to check my email, this caught my eye:



Also, how did the media already catch wind of my marriage proposal to Kitten Longmeadow? Wtf news travels fast these days. At least it wasn't trending higher than Dave Grohl, I'd feel bad, he's a legend.

#100L9t@ethereal_hurricane@kittenlongmeadow#gratsonwedding

LOL

(And why wasn't I invited to the wedding!? Kitten and Ethereal, I demand explanations!)

LOL! Apparently Yahoo news found out about it before I did!

[Vrem Vaniva]

Great thread. I'm glad you brought this up again, Pretty -- it's very timely as summer dawns. Everyone who has posted has given wonderful insights not just for why people price kitties the way they do, but how they tackle the problem of bringing one's cattery closer to self-sufficiency.
I have a set of notecards in inventory that I reread from time to time, from Juiceberry Farm, dated around October through December of 2011. A couple of them by Theodore Nacht, "Understanding Market Basics for Breedables," and "Using Market Basics for Breedables," talk about these issues -- the devaluation, as well as the redemption one experiences when breeding is not just a rat-race for money but is rather done for love, a kind of aesthetic journey ... pursuit of a dream, expressing thoughts and longings through our personal configurations of kitten-ears and whiskers. (Now I'm feeling self-conscious about writing this, knowing that y'all will notice my mixed metaphors and mangled syntax. Oh and rambling. I notice it too but ... I can't do any better. )

In the notecard, Theodore talks about the nature of pricing. "Things are worth what you pay for them. This means that if you are only willing to pay 500L for something that you know regularly sells for 5000L, it is now worth 500L." Fire-sales of very recessive genes, he says, "lead[s] to recessive genes being made available to many people who would not otherwise have invested monetarily to the degree such a recessive trait deserves. This in return results in a recessive trait becoming common. Its degree of recessiveness does not change, but its rarity drops exponentially as it is bred out en masse." I know, I often buy kittens that are grievously underpriced, and the notecard chides me ... "remember when you are buying that you getting a steal devalues what you just purchased."

This doesn't mean that our priceless kitties themselves are devalued -- just the expectations of their prices on the market. Those expectations can be very local too. There are many markets-- the same cat (if there is any such thing as a 'same cat' apart from identical twins) might be expected to cost 400L in a store on one sim, 800L in a particular auction, 1000L in another auction, or 1200L in a Magic Box and listed on Marketplace. (Or of course, someone can sell it for 99 L if he or she is happy to subsidize the cost --buying and raising its parents and marketing it -- from RL funds or unrelated SL funds.)

Not all of us want to "play store" and become professional shopkeepers -- some of us totally suck at this aspect of the game. So we can't expect everyone to handle the task of selling kitties in the same way. (Some of us don't sell at all ... and just let boxes accumulate until we have 6,000 kittens.) It's as Deery and Jackson said so well -- we can't change the way others market their kitties, but that doesn't destroy the whole kitty economy.

I've also had the experience of inadvertently offering affordable kitties to new and enthusiastic breeders, who got hooked after buying a Gatcha kitty for 49 lindens (Gatcha box was labeled "menagerie kitties" too), came back and bought out the whole Gatcha box, and birthed and bred them all! It was so much fun to see those kittens live, teacups on shoulders! My economic reason for even trying the Gatcha box at that price ... was that i had gotten reduced to buying cat food with menagerie dollars, and it made more sense to sell the "menagerie kittens" to others who were trying to get a Tiger, and to buy my cat food with lindens instead. Some of those "menagerie kitties" did become Tiger food, but quite a lot of them turned into upstanding members of the gene pool -- probably reviving some old traits in the process ... like Forest eyes and such.

I have to comment about the idea that "anyone can buy two boxes, breed them together, and sell the result." Actually ... that, too, is an art that ought to be respected when it's done well, or even when it's done badly and expresses someone's ... individual kitty-making goals. For one thing, selecting the two boxes to bang together is an incredibly complex decision process (not even to mention the horrendous shopping process). But ... well, example from me: I buy 2 boxes, one with Odyssey Crystal Rose eyes, and one with Bengal Black fur and a fussy tail. Now I bang those 2 boxes together and pretty soon i have Bengal Blacks with Odyssey Crystal Rose, which is just something that I wanted to see! It wasn't mindless, even though I did get some of the ingredients ready-made from breeders who did most of the work before i came along and bought their boxes. Similar thing, when I saw an Ocicat Ebony Silver with eyes that i wanted to see on Snowshoe Cream, and lo and behold, the Ebony silver is hiding snowshoe cream. Am I taking advantage, if I jump to buy the Ebony Silver, the second I see him? It's pretty obvious that the person who bred that Ebony Silver was thinking, "let's get these eyes and traits on snowshoe cream," and the kitty I bought was sooo close to that goal. So ... I buy this boy, and smash it together with a snowshoe cream girl, and get exactly what I wanted!

As for the 99L kitty sales ... well, adding a kitty to my cattery is a big decision for me. I know how much it will cost to feed it for the 4 months of its breeding life, and how much time I'll spend studying its little pedigree. It had better be good. So if it's the right kitty, ... if I can afford the right kitty i'd rather buy it than some random kitty that someone decided to put "on sale."

Theodore's notecard says some really good things about making your own kitties hold their value in a competitive and treacherous market -- though he's writing at the end of 2011. "... If you undercut your competitors, you help no one. If your pet is identical to theirs in most ways, the price should be identical also. You must convince people to buy yours by promoting it (spamming ad groups, plurking, tweeting, posting its picture on flickr, etc.) and by breeding a superior lineage whose parents will give yours the edge. In the real world, virtually identical products with identical prices are differentiated by consumers through which has better advertising and better ingredients/construction. The virtual world operates in much the same way." I don't agree with him that the price of the identical "product" needs to be identical. How are we supposed to know all the comparable prices? Too much research is involved in finding out, too much trudging around multi-sim marketplaces : we have to use our best judgment to figure out what price to set. However ... if I am pretty sure "my product uses better ingredients" than some superficially identical boxes, then I'm not worried that shoppers would choose another cat because of its 99L price. It does not put pressure on me to set my price the same as the fire-sale box.
(Plus, apart from Menagerie Boxes -- and i ran out of them fast -- , I don't believe in setting kitten box below the cost of feeding the parents during its making -- i.e., no box should be sold below 150L ).
Thanks for your indulgence in letting me say all this

[LyricaBlues Resident]

Oh! I sooo thoroughly enjoyed your well thought out and balanced reply. Its the kind that gives value to such a thread. Thank you so much for taking the time. I hope my response is as coherent as yours!

(06-02-2014 04:00 PM)Vrem Vaniva Wrote:  Great thread. I'm glad you brought this up again, Pretty -- it's very timely as summer dawns. Everyone who has posted has given wonderful insights not just for why people price kitties the way they do, but how they tackle the problem of bringing one's cattery closer to self-sufficiency.

The issue of self-sufficiency is one that is often misunderstood. Its not about "breeding for profit", per se. Its a matter of helping defray the cost of one hobby so that it can grow and add something of interest and value not just for breeders but for shoppers equally.
I have a set of notecards in inventory that I reread from time to time, from Juiceberry Farm, dated around October through December of 2011. A couple of them by Theodore Nacht, "Understanding Market Basics for Breedables," and "Using Market Basics for Breedables," talk about these issues -- the devaluation, as well as the redemption one experiences when breeding is not just a rat-race for money but is rather done for love, a kind of aesthetic journey ... pursuit of a dream, expressing thoughts and longings through our personal configurations of kitten-ears and whiskers. (Now I'm feeling self-conscious about writing this, knowing that y'all will notice my mixed metaphors and mangled syntax. Oh and rambling. I notice it too but ... I can't do any better. )

In the notecard, Theodore talks about the nature of pricing."

I would love a copy of this notecard because I am always looking for ways to improve my practices not just in kittycats, but in my clothing as well. I will never get rich doing either, or even break even. But the more efficiently I do things, the better I am able to produce things worth producing..just like in RL.

"This doesn't mean that our priceless kitties themselves are devalued -- just the expectations of their prices on the market...(Or of course, someone can sell it for 99 L if he or she is happy to subsidize the cost --buying and raising its parents and marketing it -- from RL funds or unrelated SL funds.) "

Ding Ding Ding! You hit the nail right on the head!

"Not all of us want to "play store" and become professional shopkeepers -- some of us totally suck at this aspect of the game."

LOL I had to laugh at this because I give away many outfits and kitties that I definitely fall under the heading of "i suck at this aspect" I give them away under certain circumstances, or I make trades when the person doesn't have the L$ to buy and they want it. Often times I accept something I dont need, but its my way of doing things to keep 'the machine' going. Many of us have been there...we buy things at auctions we dont need even if we have better sitting in the cattery. But we do it to support the owner, the sim and/or the overall commerce.

"but quite a lot of them turned into upstanding members of the gene pool -- probably reviving some old traits in the process ... like Forest eyes and such. "

Hmmm I think I got a Forest eyed kitty that way...maybe it was yours!
Yes, some gatcha kitties go on to do great things either in the breeding or on the shoulder.

"I have to comment about the idea that "anyone can buy two boxes, breed them together, and sell the result." Actually ... that, too, is an art that ought to be respected when it's done well, or even when it's done badly and expresses someone's ... individual kitty-making goals."

Ok, this is something that Im glad you addressed. As a RL breeder exhibitor, I am very conscious of the fact that any two animals can be put together by anyone to make a third. Which is fine if the overall elevation and improvement of a 'breed' is not a concern. But I cant help but remember always that it cost as much to feed excellence as it does to feed whatever. And because I am so aware of this, and know first hand the care it takes and the sacrifices sometimes made, that I have only the utmost respect for those who take the time to do it right. They put their time, money, thought and when they produce something as a result it must be respected. Your description about the OES and Blk Bengal tells me that you dont just put any two together to make a box. You have a plan. In my head I am usually at least 2 generations planned ahead.

"Theodore's notecard says some really good things about making your own kitties hold their value in a competitive and treacherous market -- though he's writing at the end of 2011. "... If you undercut your competitors, you help no one."

That is absolutely right! I feel that in the end everyone loses who is left when the dust settles.

"I don't agree with him that the price of the identical "product" needs to be identical. How are we supposed to know all the comparable prices?"

Neither do I. I have a pricing formula that is simple but even It has its little quirks and is influenced, believe it or not, by how much I paid for the kitties who brought in certain traits, how long it took me to pull those traits, and always consider what the market will bear. I have to consider also whether I am selling out of my land or have store rent to pay. Anything from my own land will cost less than if I have to sell out of a rented space. Also, With "product" that results from a gene pool, its never simple. In KC where we can only see to the grandparents, its even harder. In RL I can pull up to 12 generations in the blink of an eye and am aware of potential 'gotchas!'

"However ... if I am pretty sure "my product uses better ingredients" than some superficially identical boxes, then I'm not worried that shoppers would choose another cat because of its 99L price."

Ingredients, a term i use alot in kittycats! And its spot on because if we look at the genetic stew we are trying to create and understand, every single ingredient is there for a lonnnng time once its in. So anyone who looks at most of my pedigrees will see alot of inbreeding and tight linebreeding. I try my best that no matter what comes from a breeding, I will likely say woo hoo because most of the possibilities would be satisfactory to me even if i didnt get that 9T Mega Tortie LOL...if i got a well traited 8T normal size, Im a happy camper...and if its hiding other delicious things WOO HOO! But I also see alot of newcommers who buy kitties for phenotype and dont know about how genotype influences the outcome of banging boxes. And yes, before anyone says it, they Should learn it before they buy...but how many actually do? They will buy a pretty little black bengal and one to match and think for sure they will get a replica of one of the parents...that expectation is the cause of disappointment most of the time when they end up with whatever. I always tell newcommers "buy good and end up with Great".

"Thanks for your indulgence in letting me say all this "

No Thank You for your excellent reply.

[doubledareme Resident]

I think ...with this whole thread... that it is being short sighted to undercut the market value of a cat for what ever reason.

I sold art for years. Limited editions of very impressive prints...Bateman Brenders Seery-Lester...and original art like rare Animation...original Sericels of Disney and Hanna Barberra WarnerBrothers...

The market is only as strong as how much you value your own art.

In the art industry there is a certain bottom line that is respected and expected by every single retailer in the business. It is called a release price. NO where can you find a print under release price unless in a pawn shop. Why. Because no one buys them. Why because we value the artists. And because you lose your licence to sell the millpond prints or the disney if you do not follow the rules

In all my years selling art I have never seen it depreciate. I have prints that have tripled in value in the last 10 years and if I were to sell it in the market right now there would be a listing in a quarterly "journal" that would tell me bottom line list and market prices. It would tell me what the current value of the print is worth and it would be expected of me to fall within a certain guide line for that particular print. AND it would not help me to undercut in the market because it would DEPRECIATE the prints as a whole...every single one of them.

Now you say you do it as a hobby. Understandable. And i can see how you would want to turn a profit occasionally. But it doesn't help anyone anywhere to undervalue a cat. In the Art industry we see so many different types of people from the very very wealthy to the just scraping by. They all have a certain range they KNOW they will have to pay for their hobbie of collecting...and on the flip side they KNOW that the value of their purchases will increase and not decrease.

This can be likened to selling house like they did in the states when the banks foreclosed. Lots of people lost profit on something they should never have lost money on. Everyone but those in it to capitalize on someone else's loss was appalled and disgusted by what they were witnessing. The only way to have stopped it is at a higher level as in government much like...in a much less important instance... Millpond and all the rest of the big print publishers did.

The only way to stop this from happening here is to have a way to regulate a bottom line. That can only happen from Kitty Cats themselves. And in this day and age with the technology we have there should be some way of signalling or disabling the cat or something...something i don't know what...when a cat is sold under the original purchase price we get them for at Kitty Cats shop.

If everyone knew that there was no undercutting the original price...JUST LIKE there is no way to transfer a starter kitten...then NO ONE would do it. Simple.

Very bloody Simple.

And that my friends is the ONLY way this crap will stop. I like my hobby and I don't need the money from the sale of cats to continue to do it. THis is not about how much I can make but how i see the value of my cat. Sometimes we spend months to breed a special cat that for us is a work of art. I have personally ...and not embarrassed to say it...shed tears during the process. I feel like I've released a work of art...a Bateman ....and then having that print be sold at the dollar store because Millpond didn't keep the value at a set level.

I want to see my cats valued. All good breeders...Artists...Want to see their product ...their creation valued. And I personally think that it starts with KittyCats. The reason being is that they would NEVER sell a cat for what we are. So why are they letting it happen in the secondary market . And they have done it in much bigger industries so it can be done at this level. Allowing others to devalue their cats eventually devalues KittyCats in general is is not good business. The big breeders which buy I would say the majority of the kibbles and vitamins will have to stop breeding entirely eventually if this continues. That breaks down the market and puts it in recess. AND would put a huge dent in their pocket let alone the reputation of being the number one bred pet on SL.

That is my opinion. I don't care if you don't agree...at the bottom of it fiscally and ethically and as an artist this must happen at a higher level and soon or the market will completely collapse and every one looses...even those who buy cats at a stupidly low and embarrassing cost. There would be no more 9t cats to buy at that price... then your hobby might have to change.

No one is going to listen to my lone voice with cat prices particularly, but it there were no option at the level of business then it would change. Just like i cannot resell kibble...I can give it away but I cannot resell it....there should be some governing here with the prices of the cats. At least there would be a bottom line and no one would feel sick about selling their months of hard work and money they invest in their art...for less than the price of a chocolate bar.

My god, people spend more on Starbucks for a regular small coffee and think nothing of it. The cost of a cat at the Kitty Cat Shop in Canadian dollars is about a loonie. A dollar. Really people? We cant value each others time and effort a little more than that?

Steps off my soap box

Quote:I am in Kittycats as a hobby.

I breed as a hobby.

I sell as a hobby. I like keeping a shop, I like deciding which kitties I want to sell to other homes.. Its fun.

I don't expect my kitty sales to pay for my kibble. I never have. I only buy or breed the kitties I can afford to feed.

Since I don't expect the income from sales to balance my expenses on cats and kibble, the prices I set have *nothing* whatsoever to do with needing money to keep up my cats. In a business, costs and income should balance. In a hobby, there is no such expectation.

If you interpret the prices I set on my cats as being driven by some short term need for kibble or some desire to make up what I spent on special editions, you couldn't be more wrong.

Assuming that all of us in Kittycats, or that all of us who care about Kittycats, share your business perspective, is assuming way too much.

Surely we all have our own reasons for being here, for breeding what we breed, and offering the kitties we set for sale at whatever prices we set.

And every reason, I think, is as valid as every other one.