Discovering hidden traits in kittens started using recessive traits!!

[anna Acanthus]

(05-25-2014 02:04 AM)Choden Resident Wrote:  First, Anna, just want to thanks for confirming one of the useful methods to discover new recessive traits as stated by the original OP's posts. There are few points you mentioned above that I would like to address in an open-minded discussion.

1. Not all people will be available for the schedule on breeding class on Second Life. For what I have researched so far. There are only 2 classes availabe at present. One is at Too Adorable, the other is at The ScratchN and Post. However, we are all from different time zone. So not all new breeders could make it to attend the only 2 available classes.

2. If you have noticed, there has no "Search" function in this forum. So in order for new breeders to search specific topics, apparently it is very difficult. As we all have real life priorities, to go through all threads and read all available resources about breeding different topics are quite impossible without a "Search" function.

3. Not saying that friendly memebers not helping new breeders, however, not all older breeders will right away to tell you using 9T recessive traits kitty to start with starter kitty.

4. When I re-read this thread again, I have noticed what the OP's purpose to post this thread, is to provide a "visual" references to prove the theory of how to discover hidden traits faster way. All the OP has done was to proof using recessive traits to pair with starter kitties as well as the OP seems just want to contribute to the forum with another way by using images and his own testing results and statistics.

5. Everyone learning ability is different, also more difficult for people who doesn't read, write or speak English. I see what the OP has done with a great deal of work with time and patience to use the translator. I applause for that efforts. By seeing that, I would think the OP simply just like all kittycats members, just enjoy the fun of breeding out Kittycats.

6. I would just humblely suggest that just enjoy and have fun and have friendly discussion and share openly on the forum.

Well in fact Choden i was pointing out that this is the ONLY sure method of discovering new traits. One can of course get very lucky by breeding two starters who have same recessive or extremely recessive trait slot but this doesn't happen that often.
Fabio's lucky example is good as it shows that there is only one trait which needs confirming ( the tail ) which can either be done by back breeding or using another partner with a much more recessive tail, which in it's turn can be back bred if this more recessive tail shows as well.

The trait charts have been stickied to the first page on general discussions in order to be easily found, but of course even i have to dig quite a bit to find older posts with useful breeding infos as they can also be off subject in differently named threads too so even if we did have the search function this wouldn't always help. The most likely threads though are the ones with the most replies to them.

** The point that i was underlining was that it is untrue that older breeders try to keep the method "secret" and would be pretty silly if they did as all the info is publicly available anyhow.
Another point is that many older breeders don't often check out the forums or join in the KC in world chat group much anymore. After three or so years it's understandable that they lag off. Also teaching the method can be a long and exhausting, not to mention sometimes thankless, process and i know that when i did it often i had little time or energy left over for my own occupations and breeding.
When anyone IMs me with questions or problems though, i always take the time to try help them out and i'm sure that the majority of older breeders would do the same.
The fact that a few cannot or don't want to take time out for this can't be helped and after all they are under no obligation to do so either.

I believe that there is still the mentor scheme run by Sanura Snowpaw who will fix demanders up with a reputable breeder if one is available.

The community in general is and always has been very helpful to newcomers and a bit of perseverance will soon bring one to a friendly door where they will find some instruction or at least get pointed in the right direction.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(05-25-2014 01:13 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  For the record the breeding method described here is, of course, the only method for discovering new recessive traits.

Since 2011 we have Saga's docs, with the dominance charts, a simple guide to the method and also the Trait-Talk Transcript from an information meeting that Saga gave in September 2011 ( http://kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.php?tid=2351 )
Of course she doesn't take all the credit for this and i remember Draco Nacht dropping me a NC with the known trait orders that they and a few others had already worked out sometime in summer 2011. The Nachts were giving meetings each sunday from around May/June i think to share what they had found and everyone was welcome to attend.

...

That's interesting historywise.
I was always in the assumption Saga uncovered or discovered it all.
Thank you for clearing that up, Anna!
I wasn't part of the community yet ( joined July 2011) when appearently the Nacht's already shared info!
I first joined Saga's lecture after which, I think recognisable for everyone, I went through a lot of trial and error, we had no classes those days.
Hearing how something works is so different than actually doing it making faults/ mistakes and misconceptions ourselves.
The practice part and making those mistakes to learn from was probably equally educational for me and fun too
I noticed this also when I helped my husband with learning how to breed.
I can tell everything I know as fast as possible but the concept really kicks in when he saw patterns during breeding and asked me questions about it.
Sadly it is not always possible to tell someone how to breed in a short period of time.
Everyone learns different: one can see the full implication on paper, others really need to see how it works so that can be a process of months even.
I indeed do not think anyone wants to keep anything a secret, all the intel is freely available via the transcript of Saga's lecture.
It takes time and devotion though to bring the pieces together and to fruition.
We've all been there.
Some things can be taught, others must be practised over and over again.

[Ethereal Hurricane]

(05-25-2014 08:23 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  The trait charts have been stickied to the first page on general discussions in order to be easily found, but of course even i have to dig quite a bit to find older posts with useful breeding infos as they can also be off subject in differently named threads too so even if we did have the search function this wouldn't always help. The most likely threads though are the ones with the most replies to them.

** The point that i was underlining was that it is untrue that older breeders try to keep the method "secret" and would be pretty silly if they did as all the info is publicly available anyhow.

Another point is that many older breeders don't often check out the forums or join in the KC in world chat group much anymore. After three or so years it's understandable that they lag off. Also teaching the method can be a long and exhausting, not to mention sometimes thankless, process and i know that when i did it often i had little time or energy left over for my own occupations and breeding.
When anyone IMs me with questions or problems though, i always take the time to try help them out and i'm sure that the majority of older breeders would do the same.
The fact that a few cannot or don't want to take time out for this can't be helped and after all they are under no obligation to do so either.

I believe that there is still the mentor scheme run by Sanura Snowpaw who will fix demanders up with a reputable breeder if one is available.

The community in general is and always has been very helpful to newcomers and a bit of perseverance will soon bring one to a friendly door where they will find some instruction or at least get pointed in the right direction.

Pretty much this.

(05-24-2014 10:04 PM)Choden Resident Wrote:  As you stated correctly, this thread is only aiming on about "hidden" traits from starter or collection kitty. Let us just share breeding techniques with each others on how to discover hidden traits. This will be very helpful to new breeders "who" willingly or like to find out more breeding knowledge by finding information on this forum.

Correct, I did state that. Share all you wish. But adding new stickied (or 'important') threads to the list, when the information is already available is redundant.

If anyone actually remembers my very first post, which was the very first reply to this thread, I stated very simply this:

(05-13-2014 02:56 PM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  I think this is what everyone tries to teach. Thanks for posting though!

I acknowledged that this was confirmed as the best way to do what the OP was describing, and thanked him for the post. Every subsequent reply has been me repeating that same information, while trying to make sure people understand this isn't new, this is actually correct, and that the OP didn't create this method, which is how I feel it is being claimed.

(05-24-2014 10:04 PM)Choden Resident Wrote:  Please be acknowledged that there maybe possible language barrier or translator errors that doesn't make any senses from the poster. As English is not the OP's first language.

(05-24-2014 04:03 PM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  PS. I'm not trying to slam you or anything, but you're claiming this is your method, when it isn't. Most older kittycats breeders all know of this method. Anyone trying to make money with cats knows of this method. It's nothing new, I'm sorry. I'm not sure if its a language barrier, and I get the point of the post, but to me it feels like subtle boasting on your part.

Yep, I acknowledged this

[Skylar Sass]

After reading through this post I just wanted to say that it should not matter if you find that a post is redundant because there is already "enough" information. People never stop learning and there is never to much information on a subject. I applaud Fabio for always trying to help others and in NO WAY did I find him being pompous. Yes I am replying to several people in this post at one time. I also believe there is a technique to pulling more traits out from the specials and it is not just all luck. Some yes, others no. I don't believe it is using just the most recessive but certain recessive traits that are closer to the actual hidden traits. Just my opinion and I surely do not know as much as Fabio does, or some of you more experienced breeders. However, I do find it ridiculous to ridicule another for their thoughts, especially when they are trying to be helpful. Now I know some of you will say you didn't but it's actually quite obvious.

[Tolla Crisp]

I have spent many hours with Fabio in his Cattery and he has taught me everything I know. I have been breeding for just 6 months now and have been getting some amazing results using Fabio's techniques. I did testing on 10 Easter kittens, my first tests ever. I used the rules that Fabio has taught me and I've been pleased with the results. Using only 10 kittens, I have already found one new trait, the Rounded Boo Boo. I have also found one kitten that hides Pandie Fawn, Dark Chocolate, and Light Wave Whisker! In just two rounds of testing!
Fabio has also shown me how to breed recessives: I now have three 8T Siamese Chocolate Torties and will have 9T soon. And these torties are not just any 8T's: they have Ody Bel, Porc, Curious and Shorty, MOF, and wait, Latte! And to make this even better,these 8T torties came from two kittens that do not have tortie visible!
Thank you fabio for many hours of time you have given me!!

[LyricaBlues Resident]

Hi:

I just want to chime in here for a second. I understand what Fabao is saying and what he is doing - besides being so gracious and generous with his time and sharing information for the benefit of new breeders. He is applying genetics from RL to pixel pets which I think are very well scripted lol. For one to think that the 80% tendency is applicable as much to the one who buys 10 cats as it does to the one who buys 50, or 100 is to not consider that statistics of All kinds require an adequate sampling. It may well be that say 50% of all kitties have a hidden new recessive...but that does not mean that if i buy 10, that percentage would apply. To maximize my efforts here or RL, I believe inbreeding or tight linebreeding will nail down the traits I want and expose the hidden ones i may or may not want. And I also know that the use of recessives to *encourage* other recessives to reveal themselves is a very important step. It may not work the first time, or even the third or ever. But that doesnt mean his points are invalid.

I met Fabao not long ago and I was as impressed with his professional approach to this as I was with the fact that he Takes The Time to share what he has learned. I do not get the impression that he is saying he is the discovered of the Mendelian Genetics. He is essentially trying to simplify and put into kitty logic what he can from his understanding of genetic principles...and as long as there is a "gene pool", there will always be a gray area where we get surprised especially in most cases the breeder has no clue of the pedigree beyond grandparents. At least in RL i could trace my peds back 8-12 generations in a minute. Here with KC we often see new breeders make choices depending on phenotype and not considering whatever genotype they can and cannot see....

Just my 2 cents...and my thanks for those who take time to sit here and post and teach and help others when I am sure they could just as easily be keeping knowledge to themselves so they can be the big fish in the small bowl. Thank you all for your contributions here!

[Ethereal Hurricane]

(05-25-2014 07:36 PM)Skylar Sass Wrote:  After reading through this post I just wanted to say that it should not matter if you find that a post is redundant because there is already "enough" information. People never stop learning and there is never to much information on a subject. I applaud Fabio for always trying to help others and in NO WAY did I find him being pompous. Yes I am replying to several people in this post at one time. I also believe there is a technique to pulling more traits out from the specials and it is not just all luck. Some yes, others no. I don't believe it is using just the most recessive but certain recessive traits that are closer to the actual hidden traits. Just my opinion and I surely do not know as much as Fabio does, or some of you more experienced breeders. However, I do find it ridiculous to ridicule another for their thoughts, especially when they are trying to be helpful. Now I know some of you will say you didn't but it's actually quite obvious.

You clearly didn't read then (it's okay, it happens quite often). The first 6 replies or so were people saying "yes, this is true, it works, thanks for posting". Mixed with Fabio claiming he created this by himself over 6 months of research. Then, an outlandish claim was made that just 80% of all new cats wont hide hidden traits. Meaning, you have a 1 in 5 chance to get a new trait! It could very well be close to that, but I doubt it, and a sample of 50 cats isn't enough to claim it, just as a sample of 8 cats isn't. Luck is a factor.

Secondly, at the bottom of his post which really doesn't have that much hard data other than a picture, is slightly misleading, and would clearly rely on extra information given, Fabio asks:

(05-13-2014 02:28 PM)fabioazevedo Oh Wrote:  Let's turn this "Normal Threads" in a "Important Threads".

Why does this thread need to be an important one? As more than one person has confirmed this should be 'common knowledge' to those who seek breeding information, it's not original. The information presented can already be found in one of the 'important' threads (which, btw the way, also comes with even more important information and breeding tips, mind you).

If your only argument here is that it should be an important thread because people don't know how to read, use the search, ask questions, or all 3 of those, then yes, by all means, please make this an important thread.

Lastly, no one was attacking Fabio at first, he got defensive when people claimed his idea wasn't original. I'm not some 'forum cop', but I do believe people should at least search for a solution, or try to find information on their own first. It's common courtesy to the people who share information for them to not have to repeat it 5000 times. Having 50 threads at the top of the page with half of them repeating the same information, likewise, is counter-productive.

So once again, thank you Fabio for your thread, another confirmation that this method does work, if you wish to use it.

[Skylar Sass]

Thank you for your insights and sarcasm Ethereal. In my opinion, you just proved my point, because the first 6 posts that you describe seemed very sarcastic and counter-productive. Again, this is my opinion.

Secondly, since when is saying "My theory using recessive traits , to test kittens started , is confirmed when I have results like this" is Fabio stating that he Created anything other than having a theory, that in his experience has been proven based on what he has tested.

You stated, "I think this is what everyone tries to teach. Thanks for posting though!" - Sarcasm and plain being rude.

You stated, "A more simple way to put it would be:
If you want to discover the hidden traits of your starter/cat, use the most recessive trait available against that starter/cat.

From my previous post, what I meant was, this is not a theory, this is fact. This is exactly why the most recessive traits are so expensive.

Thanks again for the visual, nonetheless!"

Every time you post you say something ignorant and offensive including your post to me. Then at the end you leave a little note about how you are not trying to offend or slight someone. LOL

He then provided you with statistics, even though I do not personally feel that was necessary, considering he posted this to help others and give extra insight.

Then you reply with another rude and unnecessary post.

"There is no real technique to find new traits, you simply must be lucky enough to have a cat with new traits, and use deep recessive traits to pull it." How are people getting lucky when they get new traits when you stated that there is a method that works and EVERYONE knows about it.

"The majority of the people in kittycats can't afford to purchase 54 cats every release, which is the ONLY limiting factor for finding new traits." Funny I did and actually most do.

"For you though, I'll put it into simple terms." Beyond rude
"Ultimate New Trait Discovery Method, by Ethereal Hurricane: Get Credit Card, buy 100k Lindens. Buy a ton of cats. Use your most recessive traits on the new starters. Post your findings for every single one of them in Kittycats Addicts group chat. Hopefully profit." Oh yea and this is beyond rude, the fact that you bring up his or others postings shows nothing but jealousy on your part. I think its great that people post about their kittys in the chat....that is one of the points of the group. I know I post my kitties in there.

"PS. I'm not trying to slam you or anything, but you're claiming this is your method, when it isn't. Most older kittycats breeders all know of this method. Anyone trying to make money with cats knows of this method. It's nothing new, I'm sorry. I'm not sure if its a language barrier, and I get the point of the post, but to me it feels like subtle boasting on your part. " Bull and yes you are

Thank you for "thinking" I did not read the posts or maybe you just don't think before you speak at all, but some may find your posts offensive, and I am certainly one of those people.

(05-25-2014 08:59 PM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  

(05-25-2014 07:36 PM)Skylar Sass Wrote:  After reading through this post I just wanted to say that it should not matter if you find that a post is redundant because there is already "enough" information. People never stop learning and there is never to much information on a subject. I applaud Fabio for always trying to help others and in NO WAY did I find him being pompous. Yes I am replying to several people in this post at one time. I also believe there is a technique to pulling more traits out from the specials and it is not just all luck. Some yes, others no. I don't believe it is using just the most recessive but certain recessive traits that are closer to the actual hidden traits. Just my opinion and I surely do not know as much as Fabio does, or some of you more experienced breeders. However, I do find it ridiculous to ridicule another for their thoughts, especially when they are trying to be helpful. Now I know some of you will say you didn't but it's actually quite obvious.

You clearly didn't read then (it's okay, it happens quite often). The first 6 replies or so were people saying "yes, this is true, it works, thanks for posting". Mixed with Fabio claiming he created this by himself over 6 months of research. Then, an outlandish claim was made that just 80% of all new cats wont hide hidden traits. Meaning, you have a 1 in 5 chance to get a new trait! It could very well be close to that, but I doubt it, and a sample of 50 cats isn't enough to claim it, just as a sample of 8 cats isn't. Luck is a factor.

Secondly, at the bottom of his post which really doesn't have that much hard data other than a picture, is slightly misleading, and would clearly rely on extra information given, Fabio asks:

(05-13-2014 02:28 PM)fabioazevedo Oh Wrote:  Let's turn this "Normal Threads" in a "Important Threads".

Why does this thread need to be an important one? As more than one person has confirmed this should be 'common knowledge' to those who seek breeding information, it's not original. The information presented can already be found in one of the 'important' threads (which, btw the way, also comes with even more important information and breeding tips, mind you).

If your only argument here is that it should be an important thread because people don't know how to read, use the search, ask questions, or all 3 of those, then yes, by all means, please make this an important thread.

Lastly, no one was attacking Fabio at first, he got defensive when people claimed his idea wasn't original. I'm not some 'forum cop', but I do believe people should at least search for a solution, or try to find information on their own first. It's common courtesy to the people who share information for them to not have to repeat it 5000 times. Having 50 threads at the top of the page with half of them repeating the same information, likewise, is counter-productive.

So once again, thank you Fabio for your thread, another confirmation that this method does work, if you wish to use it.

[Draco Nacht]

Theo and I used to do classes and at one point in the beginning there were almost as many KittyCats classes as auctions. I think it stopped mostly because with the charts pointing out what's recessive, understanding the process is relatively simple and it gets repetitive to say the same thing so many times.

That's part of why we stopped. The other part is that we talk about how to pull traits weekly at our auctions (5PM SLT Saturdays.) We talk about it a lot. I know we're not in everyone's time zone, but a lot of auctioneers explain in great, gory detail how to pull traits. I like to call 9 trait cats "finishers" for your starters. It's an easy way to remember it.

Anyway, I do take slight offense that we stopped teaching classes as a means to mad cash and info hoarding. That was the furthest thing from my mind. I can't vouch for everyone, but changing personal circumstances, getting burned out repeating themselves, and just not knowing who needs help are the most likely culprits.

That said, the image and explanation Fabao provided in this venue is very helpful and a good place to reach out. Good job!

[anna Acanthus]

I'd just like to thank Draco and Theo once again for their enormous and generous contribution to the community.
For the amount of research and sharing they did plus endless hours spent in people's catteries helping them to establish a coherent breeding plan when most of us were still fumbling in the dark, with no pedigree page and no trait charts, all we had were our spreadsheets in the first few months.
They did it just because they loved to and still do.

Their auction/info events are still just as awesome and friendly as they were, and are very much worth a visit for anyone who can make that time zone; you'll learn a lot and often see some of the best kitties, not to mention meeting up with the nicest crowd of old faithfulls.

They are pretty low profile which is the reason that many new breeders may not have heard of them, but certainly not because it's any kind of secret tribe.