Please Be Carefull !!

[Crepe Myrtle]

I, for one, not a new breeder. You might check my profile on this webpage when I signed, but no one can assume I am new to the community. I've been around the block when it comes to breedables, including drama and et al.

Whether you are not "bashing" or "bashing", there are comments on this thread were very condescending. There were comments sound like "bullying" or intimidation. Yes, I have read everything here. Do these comments help any breeders? Might be, but how do they take that? If you are trying to guide someone, trying to nip the "bud", where are you really nipping the bud? Why is it a lost cause now to anybody? Have anybody thought about that? Have you given up or the community has given up? Instead of stepping back, we react. I know it's human nature to react. Instead of having reactive thoughts and words, be proactive in your action and words. There are people who will not speak up and stand up when they are being insulted. Who are defending them? Who are helping them? Let's reverse the situation, how do you feel if you are being insulted? Always remember, put yourself in their shoes and karma bites. It's better to pay it forward.

[anna Acanthus]

RE: Please Be Carefull !!
Well apart from yourself, no one seems to be able to find a a post that is bullying, condescending, or can be considered as "bashing" anyone at all.
I can well understand that you needed to change avatar to operate in KCs, and i now have a pretty good idea of your former identity.

This has always been a guidance thread, not a drama thread so i suggest that if you are in need of said drama, try elsewhere.

[Ivy Norsk]

I personally don't see any bashing of anybody in this thread. I do see frustration at people who mislabel boxes and misstate the mechanics of KittyCats breeding, and I can understand that since the correct information is so freely available through Saga's documents, Tad's documents, and other places and classes such as those at HQ and Kitty Kollege at the Kottage. The correct information does take some time to process and memorize however: it takes awhile to know where a "plush" tail falls on Saga's dominance charts for instance, and it's easy to mess up without constant reference until it becomes embedded in one's brain.

Some box mislabeling is probably due to those brain glitches that come from trying to process a pedigree too quickly and get the box set up for sale rapidly. (Some mislabeling may not be.) I don't believe any comments in the thread need be taken personally.

[Damian Amulet]

well not being funny but am new to the breeding game and i make mistakes, also i have no idea how the traits thingies work i have tried and has forthe saga thingie i tried working it out and failed big time. If it wasnt for crepe i would still be breeding genisis kitties. I am getting there very slowly but as for the informataion available its scetchy best of times. So forthose who things we all should no what to dothen they are the arragant ppl who only thinks of them selves and then moans bout those who is still learning.

[STRlNGS Resident]

It's not actually possible to fail at kitty breeding. It's kind of like art. Your first attempts might be clumsy, but even putting random kitties together can be fun. Genesis kitties can still hide all sorts of interesting things, and are attractive, even if they're not considered "valuable". One of my favorite kitties in my whole collection only has one trait (pink fur). It takes a very very long time to learn all about breeding and how to pull traits out, and how to know what is hiding, and not everyone wants to put in that time commitment. A genesis kitty is not a failure, it's a kitty. >o.o<

I think the original purpose of this thread was only about the inaccurate labelling of kitties. As far as that goes, I always look at the kitty and not the name on the box. And for my kitties, if I'm unsure what's hiding, it's always okay to just put the pedigree out and let people see what's in there.

[Merlin Leominster]

I have been in the KC community for a long time and very quiet,(about a month after they came out) in fact i love these things to be honest, we need to just help one another and make this one of the best communities on the planet, we all need to pay it forward and just help one another, if someone names something wrong or misrepresents a pedigree tell them I am not going to say it annoys me but I will make a suggestion that you need to let the pedigree do the talking on the cat you are trying to sell, on that point i will say that in RL i am in retail and we often when we label something using the feature-benefit method of labeling to entice a person to buy the kitties, instead what we need to do is enable the link to the kitty and to look at the pedigree ourselves then make a determination whether or not I want to spend the price for the kitty, or contact the owner of the kitty to negotiate a fair price.


PS i used to be an amaretto auctioneer but if we do not take strides in helping one another then how can this post or thread be productive as to the information needed to make a good decision on the naming convention of our kitties at a market.

[Dottie Idlemind]

This thread is older than the period of time I've been breeding, and it has been very helpful to me as I've honed my skills as a breeder. I see nothing in this thread that I would classify as condescending and I find the word "bashing" a bit harsh.

Sooooooo.... let's continue to be careful

[Kayleigh McMillan]

From what I have read I notice that this thread is trying to move forward to avoid that people name their kitties or boxes with a hidden they can't be sure about if it is there or not.
Is it because we didn't bred the kitty long enought to know or because one lacks the knowledge yet to judge this correctly.
This is not per se the wrong of the seller, the seller may be new to KC's or isn't informed enough yet.
And breeding KC's has a steep learning curve for many and there is absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything.
It took me a long time to get the hang with exactly breeding what I wanted but I loved the puzzle and miss it sometimes :-)
KC give us a new puzzle!
I think it helps to keep creating awareness though in trying to avoid people are naming kitties or boxes with hiddens if we are not absolutely positive about that.
Also because the KC community grows so fast many new breeders join and perhaps like to know this and be warned at least I would definately like and embrace such warning if I was a new KittyCatS! community member and new to how the genes of KC's work because from my understanding not every breedable works the same.
But also simply because money is at stake I think it is only fair and maybe even kind to warn sellers instead of thinking of it as insulting and condescending.
Sometimes it is also how we read things and that may not always be how it was intended but rather interpreted.
Because if someone pays good money for a precious claimed (new) hidden which turns out not to be there this can be a big problem in my opinion.
Just as with RL selling a lot of money goes hand to hand in this breedable and certainly not with monopoly value.
This is not so much the problem for people who have learned to read pedigrees, although sometimes pedigrees do not reveal it all unless we can go all the way back to the starter, but for newer people it can be disappointing if a hidden isn't there but they have paid the price for it.
So in general I think when we are in doubt let the pedigree be the judge for the buyer I think that is only fair to ask and has huge community relevance to repeat as new people arrive.
Maybe this should be a sticky post even

[anna Acanthus]

BUMP time again.

[MiuKitten Resident]

I have a question that goes along with this thread. How do you know for certain that a trait is hiding?

Here's my example. I have a Snowshoe Cream boy, Baron. For the longest time, I had no other Snowshoe Creams, so bred him to my best furs at the time, which were Balinese Cream and Foxie Salt & Pepper. Two of his kittens have shown furs other than his own, and in both cases I *think* his fur is hiding, but I'd like someone else to verify that I'm thinking along the right lines.

His first daughter, Libera, shows her mother's Balinese Cream. Mom also has Foxie Salt & Pepper in the background, but if the mom gave the shown trait, then the hidden has to come from dad, right? Looking at Baron's pedigree, I see Foxie in the background there, too, but since he shows the Snowshoe Cream fur, he could not be passing Foxie Salt & Pepper. Therefore, I've concluded that Libera hides Snowshoe Cream. However, of all Baron's kittens, I'm least confident in her hidden fur because, thus far, she has never produced a Snowshoe Cream, even with back-breeding. All her kittens are Balinese Creams.

His second daughter, Cynthia, shows her mother's Foxie Salt & Pepper (different mother from Libera). I presumed that since mom had to have passed that, Cynthia's hidden fur is her dad's Snowshoe Cream. I am more confident in this assumption because Cynthia has produced Snowshoe Cream kittens through back-breeding.

I am currently cutting down on cattery size and so selling off my "hiders" now that I have enough cats with shown Snowshoe Cream. Am I correct in advertising both Libera and Cynthia as "hiders" in this case?

Thanks very much for any help I get on this, and I hope I haven't derailed too much!

Libera's Pedigree: http://i.gyazo.com/cb3f030e9ed84ad4defd6ebd0c586472.png
Cynthia's Pedigree: http://i.gyazo.com/ca1bef1c77c59d6df696ac95f4bde4bf.png