Dumb Question?

[Bea Shamrock]

I asked Callie when I got a Lazy Dayzies box this year and she said the kitty would carry the gerbera. So my interpretation from that is that the special traits from a collection will be kept regardless; I don't know about non LE traits that have been retired andt I would love confirmation about these traits too, especially regarding the Cookiecats and Snowstorms.

Not a dumb question at all Dev.

[Sanura Snowpaw]

I have heard both sides on this on that they would pull from the available traits at time of the collections release AND that they would pull from all current traits when they first connected to the server. So I am not really sure what the correct answer might be but I am VERY interested to know this.

[Tad Carlucci]

My theory goes like this ...

A box which was never removed from the delivery pack does not, yet, exist. If it did, it would appear in your Pedigree. Since it does not appear there, it does not have a record, yet, in the database.

Remembering what general starter traits, as opposed to Special Collection traits, were possible when the Delivery Pack was originally purchased would require a lot of work. It's possible to do, but extremely unlikely.

So, I'm thinking the process goes like this:

When a Box is removed from the Delivery Pack, generate a generic stater, based upon the traits currently allowed to any non-special starter.

If the Box is a Special Collection Box, check the hidden genetics. Select those Special Collect traits appropriate for this Special Collection, and which are recessive to the hidden traits (assigned above, to the generic starter). Roll a random number. If the number comes up, replace the hidden trait with the more-recessive Special Collection trait.

This means, if you have a Delivery Pack which still has a Box inside it, and it's NOT a Special Collection delivery pack, you'll get a normal starter, just as if you purchased it today.

And it means, if you have a Special Collection Delivery Pack which still has a Box inside it, the odds of getting the Special Collection traits are only slightly different than if you'd removed the Box from the Delivery Pack way-back-when. Why slightly different? Well, some of the now-retired traits may have been dominant over the Special Collection traits. So the odds of getting a genetic hidden which is dominant over the Special Collection trait will be reduced since there are fewer more-dominant traits to select from, now, as compared to way-back-when.

Yes, there are other ways to do it. But the system I'm describing is simple to implement and has low overhead, both in code and in the database.

So, what are the tests we can make to determine when traits are set? Get a Delivery Pack. Do not take the Box from it. Note that the Box does not appear in your Pedigree. If it does, the traits are already set. Take the Box from the Delivery Pack. If it is delivered to your inventory DO NOT rez it, yet. First, check your Pedigree .. if the box now shows there, it's traits are set. If the Box is rezzed and you must take it, check your Pedigree .. the box should be there and the traits are set. If the box appeared in your inventory and does not yet appear in your Pedigree, rez it. It should now appear, and the traits are now set.

My expectation is that the above tests will show the Box in your Pedigree once you can see the Box, in-world or in your inventory, however it's delivered.

[Nenya Eun]

(12-18-2012 05:49 PM)Nenya Eun Wrote:  Boxes might hide the traits that were existing at the time they have been released.

Which means if you unpack a Valentines 2011 now, it might hide White Russian, but not Bali Seal.

I am 100% sure of my answer.

Updating a cat to the current script version doesn't change its genes and "only" updates the new features like poses etc.

[KittyCats Resident]

Tad's assumption is mostly correct.

The genetics are generated when the box is rezzed the first time, and do never change anymore afterwards.
When it is rezzed the box will load the latest genetics it can "understand" (the communication for that changed a few times with certain updates).
Special collection traits are always loaded, regardless of the version, and their chances are independent of other traits.

To make it more clear towards the future, some adjustments were made and boxes released after the cattery update will for sure load the most recent traits, and no longer get stuck at a version they "understand".

Regards
KittyCatS

[Tad Carlucci]

(12-19-2012 03:16 AM)Nenya Eun Wrote:  Which means if you unpack a Valentines 2011 now, it might hide White Russian, but not Bali Seal.

It can never hide Russian White, because that's been retired.

It can never hide Balinese Seal Lynx unless Balinese Seal Lynx has been demoted from a Special Collection trait or the box is question is part of that Special Collection.

We've been given to understand that few (none, as I understand it) traits are introduced in normal starters. And we've been given to understand that few (some do, but not many) of the Special Collection traits are demoted to normal starter traits and made available to normal starters.

Logically, they must limit the number of Special Collection traits which eventually make it down to normal starters. Otherwise the number of traits would grow and the odds of getting something 'good' in a normal starter would sink.

Also, logically, they must move some Special Collection traits down to normal starters to replace those retired which were available to normal starters. Otherwise, eventually, either they would be forced to stop retiring those traits or normal starters would have nothing left to hide.

This brings up an interesting point of record keeping.

We have Saga's charts working out the dominance relationships.

And we have deerylou's charts recording what was discovered, when.

But what we don't have is a record of whether a given trait could be proven to have come from normal starters. All we have, at this point, are the (appropriately) vague hints in the various announcements and the Our Cats section.

If we had that, then, if one wanted, say, Balinese Seal Lynx, and one wanted to do it on there own, from a starter, one could check the chart. If it was discovered from a special collection and has never been observed to come from normal starters or other special collection starters, that would greatly influence the decision process when looking for a starting point.

---

Here, "normal starter" means, to me, not only the generic starter packs available for sale but also defines the set of traits possible with all (other, future) Special Collection packs.

[Nenya Eun]

(12-19-2012 08:13 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 03:16 AM)Nenya Eun Wrote:  Which means if you unpack a Valentines 2011 now, it might hide White Russian, but not Bali Seal.

It can never hide Russian White, because that's been retired.

It can never hide Balinese Seal Lynx unless Balinese Seal Lynx has been demoted from a Special Collection trait or the box is question is part of that Special Collection.

Can we have confirmation about that ?

I have always been told that if a cat has a hidden trait, it has it "forever", so why couldn't a Valentines 2011 (I stress the year : 2011) hide Russian white ?

[KittyCats Resident]

(12-19-2012 08:13 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 03:16 AM)Nenya Eun Wrote:  Which means if you unpack a Valentines 2011 now, it might hide White Russian, but not Bali Seal.

It can never hide Russian White, because that's been retired.

It can never hide Balinese Seal Lynx unless Balinese Seal Lynx has been demoted from a Special Collection trait or the box is question is part of that Special Collection.

We've been given to understand that few (none, as I understand it) traits are introduced in normal starters. And we've been given to understand that few (some do, but not many) of the Special Collection traits are demoted to normal starter traits and made available to normal starters.

Logically, they must limit the number of Special Collection traits which eventually make it down to normal starters. Otherwise the number of traits would grow and the odds of getting something 'good' in a normal starter would sink.

Also, logically, they must move some Special Collection traits down to normal starters to replace those retired which were available to normal starters. Otherwise, eventually, either they would be forced to stop retiring those traits or normal starters would have nothing left to hide.

This brings up an interesting point of record keeping.

We have Saga's charts working out the dominance relationships.

And we have deerylou's charts recording what was discovered, when.

But what we don't have is a record of whether a given trait could be proven to have come from normal starters. All we have, at this point, are the (appropriately) vague hints in the various announcements and the Our Cats section.

If we had that, then, if one wanted, say, Balinese Seal Lynx, and one wanted to do it on there own, from a starter, one could check the chart. If it was discovered from a special collection and has never been observed to come from normal starters or other special collection starters, that would greatly influence the decision process when looking for a starting point.

---

Here, "normal starter" means, to me, not only the generic starter packs available for sale but also defines the set of traits possible with all (other, future) Special Collection packs.

We almost always release new traits together with special collections, as most would buy those special collections anyway, avoiding that they would need to buy another pair of normal starters to get the new traits.

The normal starters do however contain those new traits as well.
Only in a handfull of cases there were "limited" traits which were only available trough a certain special collection, for example with the Daizies... In such a case, this is made clear to the breeders.

From the Daizies notecard:

"Lazy Dayzies - Easter 2011

The Dayzies guaranteed to carry one of the 4 New Eye Colors (Gerbera Purple, Gerbera Pink, Gerbera Blue, Gerbera Orange) in the collection and the Porcelain Shade as their secondary Eye & Shade genes. These new traits can be passed on to their offspring. The new traits are not in our normal starter packs and may never be."

---

(12-19-2012 08:26 AM)Nenya Eun Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 08:13 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 03:16 AM)Nenya Eun Wrote:  Which means if you unpack a Valentines 2011 now, it might hide White Russian, but not Bali Seal.

It can never hide Russian White, because that's been retired.

It can never hide Balinese Seal Lynx unless Balinese Seal Lynx has been demoted from a Special Collection trait or the box is question is part of that Special Collection.

Can we have confirmation about that ?

I have always been told that if a cat has a hidden trait, it has it "forever", so why couldn't a Valentines 2011 (I stress the year : 2011) hide Russian white ?

A box, once it is rezzed and loads its traits, keeps its traits forever.

On rez, it will load the latest traits it can understand. If in this latest understandable version a trait was or wasn't retired, existed or didnt exist, that will define what is loaded or not.

( note that this no longer is an issue with boxes released after the update that launched the cattery. also refer to my previous post http://kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.ph...1#pid20611 )

[Serena Stroikavskoi]

(12-19-2012 06:58 AM)KittyCats Resident Wrote:  Tad's assumption is mostly correct.

The genetics are generated when the box is rezzed the first time, and do never change anymore afterwards.
When it is rezzed the box will load the latest genetics it can "understand" (the communication for that changed a few times with certain updates).
Special collection traits are always loaded, regardless of the version, and their chances are independent of other traits.

To make it more clear towards the future, some adjustments were made and boxes released after the cattery update will for sure load the most recent traits, and no longer get stuck at a version they "understand".

Regards
KittyCatS

Thanks KittyCatS, it explains the boxes I have in inventory that have never been rezzed. From what I understand is when I do rez them at that point they will 'communicate' which traits they will hide and if I say have a Lazy Dazy it will also get a hidden Gerbera eye and porcelain shade for sure even though they are retired. Now if I had a RFL 2011 kitty box that hasn't been rezzed, since these where special and 'could' carry one of 4 new eyes colors and furs that where not released until later. When it 'communicates' for the traits, if it understands it "COULD" carry one of those furs even though they maybe retired now. Where as if I had a regular starter kitty from the same period it would probably have more of a chance not to get it.

I guess I'm trying to understand some of the scripting for the boxes. It helps to understand the process and more like dissecting the kitty too. So my guess would be that a section of the script for the genetics would be (for collections) something like 'hard-coded-traits (array of traits)', 'chance-at-these-traits (array of traits)', and 'get-from-server(connecting)' and regular starter boxes would just have the get from server. If the script language hasn't chanced to much and the script errors on the 'chance-at' portion then the fall back would be to get from the server. But hard-coded is already there and won't even be asked.

[Nenya Eun]

* Nenya Eun is lost...

Too complicated for me especially since it's not in my native tongue.

I guess it's not a problem though because I don't use "old" starters or LE's. lol