Please Be Carefull !!

[Khea Karas]

(02-25-2012 03:26 PM)Saga Felix Wrote:  Great idea, Khea - I will add that. Sounds better than I could have explained it - thanks! <3

You're welcome

[anna Acanthus]

I'm bumping this old thread after the subject coming up in the KC chat just now.
Theres some good advice for new buyers, and it seem some newer sellers are'nt too sure about trait orders yet, so may unknowingly give false infos about their kitties.
Do read the first couple of pages as the thread went a bit off subject after

[Brandon Dawson]

I'd like to bump this thread, due to a few incidents I've noticed recently over the sale of "Foxie Auburn Duds".

I had someone recently buy a kitty like this which had my name in the pedigree (the Snow was a cat I sold), which was named "Foxie Parents", which gave the impression that this cat could hide Foxie fur to the untrained breeder - If you own foxies, you should know that Bengal Snow is more recessive than Foxie and this cat cannot hide Auburn Foxie, ever.

Fur: Bengal - Snow
Eyes: XXXXXX (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: XXXX
Ears: XXX
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)
Size: 16 cm (6.2 inch)


??????????????????????
MOM:
Fur: Foxie - Auburn
Eyes:XXXX (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: XXXXXX
Whiskers: 2 Tone Black & White (Shape: Plush)

DAD:
Fur: Bengal - Snow
Eyes: XXXXX (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: XXXXXX
Tail: XXXXX
Ears: XXXXXXX
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)

(I removed the traits so the cat remains anonymous, but it exists and someone paid a decent amount of lindens for this kitty with the assumption that they could pull foxie from it).

I just want to inform people that, at this moment in time, if you ever buy a cat that's more recessive than Russian White ( use https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak_Wqb33nVpndHhxT3RqQ1dtNV9WdDMtZUtaOGx0Q3c&sort=name&layout=list&pid=0B0_Wqb33nVpnZWYwNGViMGMtYWU4ZS00ZjAyLTk4OTctMzk2YzljODliMDhm&cindex=1#gid=0 for reference) Aby Blue / Burmese Plat / Sia Chocolate, etcetcra and it's parents have foxie in the background, it is almost impossible for this kitty to be hiding Auburn Foxie. You'll never produce the Auburn Foxie from this cat if you breed it against Cats that don't have the Auburn Foxie fur in them.

If anyone else has more questions or any more comments, feel free to message me or let me know.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

That is so sad

[Saga Felix]

-I'll just add that - since Brandon is linking to my dominance chart, PLEASE read the notes underneath the chart when a fur is listed with (See Notes) after it.

If you read the note for Foxie Auburn, you will see that only proof I have about it is that it is dominant to Burmese Platinum. -That it is placed next to Russian White should be somewhat disregarded, as it is ALSO in a grey-coloured cell, which is the color code for "rough estimation - proof required" - you can see the color codes listed above the list itself.

All in all - Brandon is right, there is NO WAY a Bengal Snow can hide Foxie Auburn... But it is proven dominant to Burm. Platinum, not Russian White. Again, if anyone have further proof, please-please send it to me in a notecard.

Maybe I need to add a place on the charts where the VERY UNCERTAIN furs can be listed, so that misunderstandings don't arise due to their uncertain placement on the list... I will look into that.

-Saga

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I come to think it is really dangerous to obtain a hidden trait which we have very little information about as for where it stands in the dominance order.

[dakillakm Resident]

Basically then a rule of thumb for buying might be that if the trait is shown as uncertain at all in Saga's charts be sure that the trait showing on the parent/grandparent is either well dominant to the trait you hope is hidden or the parents are SHOWING that trait you want. If the pedigree looks a bit confusing and you aren't sure if the trait you want could be hidden then just politely ask in KittyCatS chat if "so and so could hide under so and so" or something similar. Sometimes I think cases like these do happen out of a completely non-malicious situation where the seller also does not fully understand the charts or the rules of dominance. Just my two or more cents for this tricky problem...

[Bea Shamrock]

(10-26-2012 09:32 AM)Saga Felix Wrote:  Maybe I need to add a place on the charts where the VERY UNCERTAIN furs can be listed, so that misunderstandings don't arise due to their uncertain placement on the list... I will look into that.

-Saga

I thought that's what the furs with grey background were.

The chart seems clear enough to me as it is -if it says see notes, I scroll until I find NOTES and read them, honestly.

[Devilness Chant]

(10-26-2012 02:53 PM)dakillakm Resident Wrote:  Basically then a rule of thumb for buying might be that if the trait is shown as uncertain at all in Saga's charts be sure that the trait showing on the parent/grandparent is either well dominant to the trait you hope is hidden or the parents are SHOWING that trait you want. If the pedigree looks a bit confusing and you aren't sure if the trait you want could be hidden then just politely ask in KittyCatS chat if "so and so could hide under so and so" or something similar. Sometimes I think cases like these do happen out of a completely non-malicious situation where the seller also does not fully understand the charts or the rules of dominance. Just my two or more cents for this tricky problem...

I agree with you Daki. It could have been a misunderstanding on the sellers part. They may not have understood the order the fur fell in. And I have made a few mistakes myself to understand that yes this can happen.
But when we sell something we really need to know what we are selling. Not only do the buyers need to do their homework, but so do the sellers. Your reputation is in that sale. If ppl are going to come back and buy again you need to know you are selling a kitty that warrants the prices you're putting on them. You need to be honest with your buyers. You need to check the charts, and ask around before you price and put that kitty out.
For lower priced kitties I'm not so picky about pedigrees. But I think it's a good idea to show ppl what they're getting if you expect to get a higher price for something.
Another handy tool for selling is a pedigree linker made by Liriel. Someone told me how it works last week and I love it. Maybe she can post something about it in kitty stuff with a link to her shop. Or even here, I don't know if that would be allowed is the only reason I didn't.
And I think it's important for a person to check Sagas charts and ask around before spending a lot on a kitty.
I like to think that 99.9 percent of our kitty community are honest ppl. But there is that .1 we have to watch out for.
And these days with so many new traits (yay) it's good to have an idea of what you are getting.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

Yes reputation is very important because a seller can, if intentionally, make a good sale by a false claim but these rumors go fast.
And we all know new people make mistakes as for what a cat can hide that is forgivable I think.
Yes, it is either KC comes with an official dominance order list which sure would damage some of the game element or we need to make sure new people feel free to ask our opinion about a cat before they buy.
I'm very happy so much initiatives are taken to educate people I'm so amazed how fast newer people learn to breed.
You new breeders out there can't stop to amaze me, seriously!
That was way different in our days