DOn't Say HIDE!?!

[Shamu077 Resident]

(03-20-2014 06:36 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  this is another fact that probably gets misconstrued due to terminology alone.
like hasn't anyone ever bred a couple black russians together and all they have in their peds r black russians, you put em together and out comes a bengal or a siames or a tabby, right not cause its a hidden dominant, its cause its just something that was in the ped somewhere far far away that the ole shuffling of cards trick that genetics does decided to play that card.

If you get a different fur from those pair of russian blacks, it is because that fur was RECESSIVE to russian black fur - end of story. There is no such thing as a "hidden dominant" - if it is hidden it is because it is recessive to the dominant fur, which is showing. The gene "deck" has 2 cards per cat per trait.

There is no shuffling of only 2 cards, only the random chance you will get one card or the other card PASSED to the new offspring.

The best terms to use to correctly understand breeding are passing, showing, and hidden. Dominate always shows, Recessive is always hidden.

The term "Pulling" should be banned from usage, since it leads to confusion and misconceptions among new breeders - and the fact that nothing is ever "pulled" in the first place - traits simply Pass all on their own - no pulling allowed.

One of only two genes are passed randomly to the kitten from each parent, and the trait that shows is always the dominant trait. That's really all there is to it.

Mendel's Laws are never broken in the KittyCats world - breeding is not a fuzzy art.
(ooh a play on words)

[Hathor Xaris]

Now that definitely makes sense thanks so much for the input!

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in rl there posibility of shuffling a whole lotta cards from many things tho i though kittycats was the same in rl how is there only 2 cards? metaphorically speaking ofcourse

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im assuming this is just the way they designed it so its not "exactly" like rl situation since were talking virtual kitties here, ive seen the kittycats diagrams showing this shuffling possibility you speak of many times tho

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in rl theres a shuffling of many many things if you happen to be mixed with 9 different races like myself maybe im not really reffering to the same thing as you when i say shuffle but either way i think i definitely "get" what's going on with kittycats here right now thanks to evryones help! you guys are great thanx

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all of your explanations are for the most part very clear and easy for me to follow i hopefully will have a much better handle on things now !

[MsCasey Baily]

I don't know if this is helpful but I use hidden on live cats where I have OS to show what the parent's actual hidden was, and I use OS on the boxes to help people search more easily.

Something that makes me crazy is when people say something is an OS of a trait it can't possibly hide because the trait is dominant to the shown. An example to clarify ... a Foxie Salt and Pepper labeled as a Bengal black OS, this may be technically true but can be very misleading to newer people who aren't using Saga's chart because as we know if the box is a FSP the BB is gone.

[Hathor Xaris]

forgive me if i seem stupid but what does OS stand for? im really not savvy with abbreviations i have a lot of linguistic difficulties in general actually

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

There seems to be some misinformation going around lately that every trait in every ancestor of a cat is still hiding and possible to pull out of a kitten. This just isn't true. Lets say I have a kitty showing gerbera blue eyes, but I know she is hiding ody rainbow. If I put her with a kitty with ody bellini and I get a kitten showing gerbera blue, it CAN'T hide the ody rainbow as the kitty hiding the ody rainbow chose to pass her shown gerbera blue. If it had passed the ody rainbow in this case, the ody rainbow would show since it is dominant to the ody bellini.

It can be very confusing at first, looking over pedigrees and trying to figure out where the traits in a kitten came from. Keep at it, and don't be afraid to ask someone to help you if you can't figure it out.

One thing that confuses people is this. Take the kitten we just made in the above example. It shows gerbera blue eyes and now hides odi bellini ( let's assume for this purpose the ody bellini is pure as in cat as bred when ody bellini was most revessive eye). If you were to pair this kitten with a different cat showing or hiding ody rainbow, you could make a kitten showing ody rainbow if the kitten chose to give it's hidden ody bellini. This confuses people and they say "see, I told you the ody rainbow was still in there" But it wasn't coming from the cat they think it was, it was from the new partner.

The main thing to remember is this. Every cat has two slots per trait. Each parent fills one slot with either their shown or hidden trait. The more dominant of the traits will be what shows. Whatever traits the parents did not pass, cannot be "in" that kitten. It's always an EITHER/OR thing, a parent can only fill ONE slot per trait.

Also, more dominant traits can be lost through breeding. In the above example if we had made a kitten showing ody rainow, the gerbera blue would be lost in that kitten because both ody rainbow and ody bellini are RECESSIVE to gerbera blue so the gerbera blue cannot be hidden.

The recessiveness charts are your friend. One of the best things you can do to help your breeding is to learn what is recessive to what. And always remember, the most dominant of the traits is what will show on a kitten. Hope this helps some =o)

[Hathor Xaris]

and when you say the black bengal is gone this doesn't refer to if you bred it with another black bengal obiously which i think is actually the most relative thing if say you already had one in your possession and your looking for it's future mate, Can you please clarify if what you mean when you say the black bengal is gone that you can no longer put this cat with another cat having absolutely no black bengal in it hoping to get black bengals then you WILL get burned. so i think this info taht is teh topic of what i been getting at is only relative to you depending on wether you even have a black bengal to begin with, and really what im been trying to tell everyone is i have a specific market im trying to appeal to and it's ppl who already have ownership of black bengals ( preferably one of mine *winks* ) to make good mating pairs, i know this is true cause this is what i did to end up with my own black bengals and i really just want everyone who wants one to get one. im definitely not trying to mislead ppl who don't already have one to mate with. but i guess whats not getting thru to me is this simp0le fact i really need it to be confirmed right now ok : if it is dominant in the ped it will pass still if paired with more of the same??? cuz...it sure seems like it to me based on what ive seen so far. maybe im confused still tho

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I would NEVER try to mislead ANYONE on purpose btw , in case you guys havent noticed, i dont price gouge and im not greedy for money, i get paid in the enjoyment of making others happy

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im sure theres lots of ppl in the community already who can confirm i go around doing nothing but good deeds for ppl, and not cause i want anything in return , beacause i simply enjoy seeing happiness in others

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

I'm not sure if your last reply was referring to my post, but I'll try to answer what I think your question is as best as I can. I think what you are asking is this "If I have a kitten I want to sell, and it's not showing FUR A, but one of it's parents DOES show FUR A, how do I label it?" In that case, I personally feel it is safe to say that it hides FUR A or better, assuming that FUR A is recessive to the fur that is showing on the kitten.

I know it gets confusing, and good for you for trying to be extra careful in labeling your cats you want to sell.

So let's take a look at a bengal black example. Bengal Black is dominant to Foxie Salt & Pepper and I have a few that show Bengal Black and hide the Foxie Salt & Pepper. When I breed them together..two kities showing bengal black, now and then I'll get a kitteh showing the foxie salt & pepper. That kitten that shows the foxie salt & pepper CANNOT hide the bengal black because it's showing the more recessive fur.

If I took one of my bengal blacks that is hiding the foxie salt & pepper and put it with a nice bali cream and I got a bali cream kitten, then what? Well, one way to go would be to say "COULD" hide bengal black or... "hides bengal black or foxie salt & pepper" or.. "hides bengal black or better" or.. "bengal black mom or dad". See I can't be sure it hides bengal black since I can't tell without breeding it out myself whether my bengal black passed the shown or hidden fur.

Personally, I just turn on the pedigree links on my boxes and label them for what they show usually.

"if it is dominant in the ped it will pass still if paired with more of the same???"

I'm not sure what you're asking here, but I'll reiterate that when you breed two cats, they each pass on 1 trait per slot. Let's use shades as an example. You have a boy showing twinkle and in his pedigree, parents both show glitter, grandparents show twinkle and glitter. Lets say you have his sister too and are going to breed them together so her pedigree is the same. So you breed them and get a kitten showing twinkle. Even though there is glitter in the pedigree, that kitten cannot hide glitter because twinkle is more recessive and that's what the kitten is showing.

Now..here's where it gets confusing.. if you took that kitten showing twinkle and mated it with a cat that is showing or hiding glitter...you could make a kitten with glitter, because the twinkle is more recessive it would let the glitter show. But the cat showing twinkle, has no glitter in it, even though it's in it's pedigree..what shade if any will show in kittens the twinkle cat makes will depend on what it's partnered with. If you put the twinkle cat with a partner showing flash shade, the twinkle would show (assuming the twinkle cat doesn't have a more recessive shade lurking), it's all about what is recessive to what.

So the fact that the twinkle cat has glitter in it's pedigree has nothing to do with it passing glitter. It allows glitter to show if bred with a glitter cat because twinkle is the more recessive shade. If that cat's grandparents has shown twinkle and illume, the twinkle cat would still allow glitter to show on it's offspring.

I really hope that made some kind of sense. It's late and now my brain is fried. But there are some really awsome people that contribute to the forum here who can maybe say it better =o)

Hope I helped some.

[Hathor Xaris]

(03-21-2014 12:29 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I'm not sure if your last reply was referring to my post, but I'll try to answer what I think your question is as best as I can. I think what you are asking is this "If I have a kitten I want to sell, and it's not showing FUR A, but one of it's parents DOES show FUR A, how do I label it?" In that case, I personally feel it is safe to say that it hides FUR A or better, assuming that FUR A is recessive to the fur that is showing on the kitten.

I know it gets confusing, and good for you for trying to be extra careful in labeling your cats you want to sell.

So let's take a look at a bengal black example. Bengal Black is dominant to Foxie Salt & Pepper and I have a few that show Bengal Black and hide the Foxie Salt & Pepper. When I breed them together..two kities showing bengal black, now and then I'll get a kitteh showing the foxie salt & pepper. That kitten that shows the foxie salt & pepper CANNOT hide the bengal black because it's showing the more recessive fur.

If I took one of my bengal blacks that is hiding the foxie salt & pepper and put it with a nice bali cream and I got a bali cream kitten, then what? Well, one way to go would be to say "COULD" hide bengal black or... "hides bengal black or foxie salt & pepper" or.. "hides bengal black or better" or.. "bengal black mom or dad". See I can't be sure it hides bengal black since I can't tell without breeding it out myself whether my bengal black passed the shown or hidden fur.

Personally, I just turn on the pedigree links on my boxes and label them for what they show usually.

"if it is dominant in the ped it will pass still if paired with more of the same???"

I'm not sure what you're asking here, but I'll reiterate that when you breed two cats, they each pass on 1 trait per slot. Let's use shades as an example. You have a boy showing twinkle and in his pedigree, parents both show glitter, grandparents show twinkle and glitter. Lets say you have his sister too and are going to breed them together so her pedigree is the same. So you breed them and get a kitten showing twinkle. Even though there is glitter in the pedigree, that kitten cannot hide glitter because twinkle is more recessive and that's what the kitten is showing.

Now..here's where it gets confusing.. if you took that kitten showing twinkle and mated it with a cat that is showing or hiding glitter...you could make a kitten with glitter, because the twinkle is more recessive it would let the glitter show. But the cat showing twinkle, has no glitter in it, even though it's in it's pedigree..what shade if any will show in kittens the twinkle cat makes will depend on what it's partnered with. If you put the twinkle cat with a partner showing flash shade, the twinkle would show (assuming the twinkle cat doesn't have a more recessive shade lurking), it's all about what is recessive to what.

So the fact that the twinkle cat has glitter in it's pedigree has nothing to do with it passing glitter. It allows glitter to show if bred with a glitter cat because twinkle is the more recessive shade. If that cat's grandparents has shown twinkle and illume, the twinkle cat would still allow glitter to show on it's offspring.

I really hope that made some kind of sense. It's late and now my brain is fried. But there are some really awsome people that contribute to the forum here who can maybe say it better =o)

Hope I helped some.

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(03-21-2014 01:40 PM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  

(03-21-2014 12:29 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I'm not sure if your last reply was referring to my post, but I'll try to answer what I think your question is as best as I can. I think what you are asking is this "If I have a kitten I want to sell, and it's not showing FUR A, but one of it's parents DOES show FUR A, how do I label it?" In that case, I personally feel it is safe to say that it hides FUR A or better, assuming that FUR A is recessive to the fur that is showing on the kitten.

I know it gets confusing, and good for you for trying to be extra careful in labeling your cats you want to sell.

So let's take a look at a bengal black example. Bengal Black is dominant to Foxie Salt & Pepper and I have a few that show Bengal Black and hide the Foxie Salt & Pepper. When I breed them together..two kities showing bengal black, now and then I'll get a kitteh showing the foxie salt & pepper. That kitten that shows the foxie salt & pepper CANNOT hide the bengal black because it's showing the more recessive fur.

If I took one of my bengal blacks that is hiding the foxie salt & pepper and put it with a nice bali cream and I got a bali cream kitten, then what? Well, one way to go would be to say "COULD" hide bengal black or... "hides bengal black or foxie salt & pepper" or.. "hides bengal black or better" or.. "bengal black mom or dad". See I can't be sure it hides bengal black since I can't tell without breeding it out myself whether my bengal black passed the shown or hidden fur.

Personally, I just turn on the pedigree links on my boxes and label them for what they show usually.

"if it is dominant in the ped it will pass still if paired with more of the same???"

I'm not sure what you're asking here, but I'll reiterate that when you breed two cats, they each pass on 1 trait per slot. Let's use shades as an example. You have a boy showing twinkle and in his pedigree, parents both show glitter, grandparents show twinkle and glitter. Lets say you have his sister too and are going to breed them together so her pedigree is the same. So you breed them and get a kitten showing twinkle. Even though there is glitter in the pedigree, that kitten cannot hide glitter because twinkle is more recessive and that's what the kitten is showing.

Now..here's where it gets confusing.. if you took that kitten showing twinkle and mated it with a cat that is showing or hiding glitter...you could make a kitten with glitter, because the twinkle is more recessive it would let the glitter show. But the cat showing twinkle, has no glitter in it, even though it's in it's pedigree..what shade if any will show in kittens the twinkle cat makes will depend on what it's partnered with. If you put the twinkle cat with a partner showing flash shade, the twinkle would show (assuming the twinkle cat doesn't have a more recessive shade lurking), it's all about what is recessive to what.

So the fact that the twinkle cat has glitter in it's pedigree has nothing to do with it passing glitter. It allows glitter to show if bred with a glitter cat because twinkle is the more recessive shade. If that cat's grandparents has shown twinkle and illume, the twinkle cat would still allow glitter to show on it's offspring.

I really hope that made some kind of sense. It's late and now my brain is fried. But there are some really awsome people that contribute to the forum here who can maybe say it better =o)

Hope I helped some.

Thank you so much for that your answer definitely makes sense, i think a lot my confusion actually merely stems from the idea that i just way over think things sometimes, i have quite a bit of knowledge of RL genetics and i think i was applying a little "too" much of that to my kittycats breeding, apart from mendela's law kittycats breeding is not "exactly" as RL ( else there'd be one hell of a programmer out there who should prob be busy mapping the human genome instead )it is much more simple which is a big relief to me, RL genetics is waaay more complicated than this , it makes this look easy!! I totally am unconfused now i believe about kittycats breeding, still a little confused about RL genetics on many levels but at least i know now i don't have to apply every little rule to kittycats just the basics.

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i think this is also a thing that misleads newbies to overthink it cuz of rl the possibilities r slightly different, in kittycats it very straightforward actually with the fact you only have 2 slots to toss up that narrows it down to what you can and cannot breed so much easier and doesn't leave it quite so much up to astronomical mathematical chance like rl does when your dealing with millions of things to shuffle, so the algorithms in kittycats r way simpler to follow and so much easier to control

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and gives us as breeder quite the uperhand in controlling what comes out in RL we dont get that luxury as commonly

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so if new ppl consider this simplicity maybe it will demystify that you can't pass every trait in a ped

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its like either one or the other..hehe so simple

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I would like to formally ask the Kittycats community to please go easy one us newbies, please be genttile with us, ecspescially if you approach us while were in the middle of fixing up bidboards, pleas don't scare off the newbies by getting into arguments with them during tense moments while they might in the middle of trying to make a sale so they can survive or stay in business feed their cats pay their rent try and get a handle on things its a little stressful at first im sure you all remember, perhaps its best to approach them softly and as passively as possible maybe its best to if you find a confused person to simply refer them to something you think they might not have seen yet instead of assuming they know nothing, they may not actually be beginners but intermediate novices like myself and just simply need more instructing or deconfused, its hard to approach them without makin g them feel attacked or insulted when there under this much pressure, i totally understand that, please just try and put yourself in their place before you approach them, try to love and care for them and don't come off as being competitive by having no patience fo their ignorance or insinuating that they know nothing or are just trying to fool people so they can make a dollar, not every one is a scam artist abeit teher r quite a few out there, just try to recognize someone before you label them at all is all i mean dont scare off the newbies, its embarrasing enough to find that your not in the info loop to add extra discomfort to get told in public how wrong you are, all everyone wants is to be loved and feel welcome and accepted into this amazing family. so gentile would be the way to go with newbies, forward them forum links like this one, avoid arguing at allor trying to explain inworld to a complete stranger how wrong they are, and i think they will be fine and not get angry or make confrontation or snap at you, and think your just jealous or get the wrong idea why your approaching them if they happen to be confused. I think they will be quite grateful and what comes around goes around lets all share positivity if we can Thank you all so much for reading!

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the more ppl who join our community the bigger and better our economy. what hurts 1 person hurts evryone

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ooh and vice versa

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I just thought of this little poem

"Lets not be snarky snobby or snide, lets be happy , positive, and full of pride,
because we are all such special wonderful spirits inside,
Instead surrender & be humble because love & happiness is something...
one must never...hide."

[Ethereal Hurricane]

With all the quoting I skipped the majority of the thread so excuse me if this has been said, but there are people, and some are notorious for doing so, say HIDES as a gimmick to get you to buy their "duds" for a more expensive price.

[Shamu077 Resident]

(03-21-2014 05:16 PM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  With all the quoting I skipped the majority of the thread so excuse me if this has been said, but there are people, and some are notorious for doing so, say HIDES as a gimmick to get you to buy their "duds" for a more expensive price.

If what the cat Hides is accurate, then how is that a gimmick? If a genesis fur hides a new rare fur, and it is proven to be so, should that cat only be labeled as as a genesis fur, with no mention that is is hiding a fur discovered 5 days ago worth 20K? Really?

I don't use the term Hide - I put accurate hidden traits of significance in parenthesis after the showing traits. And since I breed most of my cats from starters to 9T, I don't have to guess about the past pedigree. If I am not sure, I don't list a hidden.

Every cat I breed gets important hidden traits listed in the name - for MY OWN USE, when it is born. I see no reason to delete the hidden information when I sell them.

What I really hate is people who list a kittenbox name as "New Kitten", and then don't even check the "Enable In World Pedigree Link" box or include a pedigree giver. I never buy a cat without all the information listed. And, the more information listed in the name, the more useful area search is when looking for a trait at a busy sim.