Pedigree Anonymity (2)

[Tad Carlucci]

I'm skipping over a lot of discussion and just dropping in my thinking:

* There should be an option on the My Account page which, when checked, allows your name to be shown as the owner. While the logical default for this option would be unchecked (do not show), for minimum change to existing systems (previous to the still-in-flux current system) the default should be checked (show my name).

* There should be an option on the My Account page which, when checked, allows your name to be shown as the breeder. When unchecked, it shows "Someone Else". The default for this option should be unchecked (do not show).

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

(02-05-2013 12:02 PM)Corvi Ashdene Wrote:  I didn't read the thread Sanura mentioned that has now been removed, but I gather the gist of it was that some people feel that a kitty that comes from a line from the same breeder is somehow worth more than a kitty who has not been line bred. This is just ridiculous. ALL lines are going to have to bring in fresh blood at times. Otherwise the line stagnates.

The thread in question posed a simple query as to how people felt about buying a cat with reselling in mind...eg; flipping a cat as one would flip a house.

The idea that some did not like that practice came up. That somehow became twisted into "oh, you think your cats are better than mine" which from what I can recall was never said or inferred by anyone.

I find it sad that we tend to let honest discussions degrade at times into rants, but we are all only human.

I agree with your point entirely. Everyone did that I can recall. And you are correct, unless you go out and buy a truck load of starters and breed only those cats and their offspring it's *technically* not 100% YOUR line. And I don't know of anyone who does that because we all love each other's kitties and want to buy/sell/give/trade. It would be boring as hell in a very short time if we didn't.

I have NO CLUE where this whole "you're an elitist snob" argument came from and I'm friggin sick of it. I appreciate the work and care many, many breeders put into their cats. We SHOULD be all taking part in a mutual admiration society here but as it stands I have heard from some excellent long term breeders they feel they are being attacked and singled out because they happen to have made some epic cats or were lucky enough to find or could afford to buy a new trait. So now instead of being able to feel happy about that, they feel like they can't or they are being elitist.

I'd like to say to any that feel like pointing a finger..look at the hand you're pointing with..one finger may be pointing at the ones you call elitist..but you have three pointing right back at yourself.

Now please for the love of god, no one EVER said they were better than anyone else or as far as I can tell ever insinuated it. No one EVER wanted new breeders to be excluded from anything, nor was THAT ever insinuated.

And I resent it really because there is no way to defend oneself. Its kind of like window shopping with someone and seeing a lovely vintage gown in a shop window and saying.."ooooh I LOVE that" and having the other person say "you don't like *my* clothes, you're an elitist snob". It makes no damn sense, but it seems to happen a lot in this group.

So take that for what you will. I'm going back to hang out with the chickens, kitteh and piggies, they make more sense to me.

[Misa Delight]

I LOVE this new edition to the pedigree of breeder name and owner name! KittyCats is awesome and continues to be by far the most caring breedable company I've seen. Thank you!!

[Sanura Snowpaw]

The elitist thing came into being with rules such as having to own both parents plus grandparents in order to be allowed to sell the kitten. I'm not sure if there is another way to take it that except if you don't own a certain amount of the line you are trying to sell from it has less value. It comes from people feeling badly about buying cat/s and selling their babies. Or people passing up a cat out for sale to go back to the person who owned the grandparents because they bought the trait not bred it out of a starter. It has the potential to be damaging to both the person who bred the trait out and those who have bought the trait and are now also wanting to breed and sell it. Because who wants to invest into a cat showing a new trait when they won't be able to sell it once they breed it out as all the people are going back to the original seller and requesting babies from them passing over the cat that is sitting there for sale.

I do NOT like to see these people being hurt and upset because it is implied that their cat is worth less because they don't own enough of the line in the background. Nor am I trying to hurt anyone else either, that would be the very last thing I would want to do is hurt someone. Actually the whole reason I am voicing my concerns is because of those who have come to me hurt by the previous thread and didn't feel comfortable to speak up.

Am I worried showing breeder name will increase that? Yes, but I also hope that it isn't the case.

I do see how this can be helpful to the community and looking back to find things and such. I do think those who have spent weeks or months breeding something out deserve recognition and I think it is there as the system stands. I myself have spent months breeding something out to make my ideal but I also want those who get the cats from me to feel welcome to breed them, sell them or otherwise do what they wish with them.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

(02-05-2013 08:47 PM)Sanura Snowpaw Wrote:  The elitist thing came into being with rules such as having to own both parents plus grandparents in order to be allowed to sell the kitten.

OK, so one auction out of HOW MANY?? has set a rule you must own both parents and at least one set of grandparents to sell that specific cat at their auction. That's how they want it, that's what they think is best for their auction. You don't have to auction there. Some auctions allow boxes, others don't. Some allow older kitties, other's don't. Almost all seem to have a certain number of shown traits as a requirement, doesn't that exclude some people too? No one is forcing anyone to sell at a certain auction. Not all of my cats would fit the rule in question either. I tend to get a pair of kitties l like and make a ton of boxes then open a pair of siblings when the parents are about aged out. So in that case, ya it may be a while before I'd sell that line in that auction. But it could also be done in about a month if I open first box and breed back.

But I have to say what amazes me is out of this ONE auction setting a certain rule, we have people afraid to sell their cats???? That makes no sense to me. I would just go to another auction.

Anyway..sorry to stray off topic. I just wanted to clarify that the rule in question was just from one auction.

[Katzen Resident]

I do like knowing who owns cats further up the line, but I definitely agree with concerns others have had about alts. I have several alts and nearly all my current cattery was bred while I was using the alts, so if someone looks at my pedigrees they'll think I bought the cats from someone else and I'll get no credit for my breeding whatsoever. Plus, even if I did sell you your great, great, great grand babies, it's unlike I have any more or remember what they went for back then. Personally I prefer the old system which let you know who currently owns what. The current owner is all that really matters since they would be the only one who can sell you the cat or its offspring.

[Aisling MacMoragh]

(02-04-2013 09:48 PM)Brunabug Nightfire Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 09:42 PM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  I like the change as it was before this temporarily 48 hours change.
I love to be able to see who the breeder originally was of a certain line of cats I like just so I can vist his/ her store or contact them in person.
It gives much convenience as well to be able to access the pedigree of a cat we don't own anymore but have bred.
This gives more flexibility to sell parents/ grandparents while we remain to have access to their stats.
Personaly I would love to keep the change in showing the breeders and the owners name.

I agree!

I couldn't have said it better. I completely agree.

[Aryala1 Resident]

(02-05-2013 09:52 PM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 08:47 PM)Sanura Snowpaw Wrote:  The elitist thing came into being with rules such as having to own both parents plus grandparents in order to be allowed to sell the kitten.

OK, so one auction out of HOW MANY?? has set a rule you must own both parents and at least one set of grandparents to sell that specific cat at their auction. That's how they want it, that's what they think is best for their auction. You don't have to auction there. Some auctions allow boxes, others don't. Some allow older kitties, other's don't. Almost all seem to have a certain number of shown traits as a requirement, doesn't that exclude some people too? No one is forcing anyone to sell at a certain auction. Not all of my cats would fit the rule in question either. I tend to get a pair of kitties l like and make a ton of boxes then open a pair of siblings when the parents are about aged out. So in that case, ya it may be a while before I'd sell that line in that auction. But it could also be done in about a month if I open first box and breed back.

But I have to say what amazes me is out of this ONE auction setting a certain rule, we have people afraid to sell their cats???? That makes no sense to me. I would just go to another auction.

Anyway..sorry to stray off topic. I just wanted to clarify that the rule in question was just from one auction.

Right on, Noc. I have a hunch, but no proof, that the rule began back when pedigree reading was still an undiscovered art and auctioneers wanted to be able to get solid info on at least recent ancestors. Now, I'm thinking it might just be an outmoded, redundant rule. Nothing worth getting worried about, especially now that pedigree access is so much expanded and dominance is at least better understood than last year, or in the beginning.

Elly

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(02-05-2013 05:52 PM)devilness chant Wrote:  My point is...you can look in a pedigree and see the original breeders without plastering their names on every kitty. We now have the option to open our pedigrees up for all to see and to go back as far as they can. Even Liri's pedigree does that.
So why does everyone's names have to be on every single kitty?

To go into the history of a kitty it's the last breeders choice to open up the pedigree so others can look as far back as possible. So why not make this new thing an option also?

My pedigrees are open for all to see, but that is my CHOICE. We should have the right to CHOOSE how we want to display our kitties. I was disappointed to see that wasn't on the voting options.

I wish that original breeders were discernable from an open pedigree, but its not. What shows is who owns the kitty today. Not who owned it when it was made/boxed. This is the reason I am eager to have the breeder labeled and permanent, while the owner can drift and change with each sale as it has for ages now.

I do comprehend your preference for choice. It wouldn't hurt my feelings or my business if an individual owner were able to opt out in some way. I could live with that. Hope you get some result you can be comfortable with.

Elly

[Tad Carlucci]

The issue is balancing the desire of the present owner of offspring against the desire of the past owners and breeders.

This is why it should be options controlled in the My Account page.

A breeder who does not want to fields questions about stock they've produced, such as whether they might have other offspring, should have the ability to remove their name from the Pedigree. This becomes especially true now that the Pedigree can be traced back any number of generations.

In the same vein, the present owner of a cat viewable on the Pedigree may not want to field questions and should be enabled to remove their name from the Pedigree listing.

Obviously, we're not talking about the "target" cat .. that is, the one who provided the link. What we're talking about are the predecessors. When it was just parents and grandparents, we were talking about a small number. But now, potentially, there could be many more players effects.

Sure, it's interesting to know who bred the parents or grandparents, or whatever, of a cat you presently own or are considering owning. But, ask yourself, what good is that information? Does it change anything knowing it? Does it change anything NOT knowing it? What other use could there be with that information than to contact the breeder? Given the information is to be made available, should not the person have the right to say "Do NOT Disturb"? Or are we to presume that, simply by virtue of having bred a cat, you are irrevocably giving up the right to be left alone?

[Draven Schapire]

I vote for the ability to opt-out, as mentioned earlier. Seems to be the best way to appease both sides. :^)