New Opaline eyes - recessives

[deadlycreature1 Resident]

big congrats Fabio Mr. Cat

[Brunabug Nightfire]

Just checking to find out if the cat Harvey showing the Opaline eye was tested to see if Galaxy Star is hidden eye?
Also Checking if Randi the cat showing Exotic Journey has been tested to prove to be hiding the Opaline eyes.
Thanks~BreeAnn

(12-06-2016 10:43 AM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  Congrats Fabao.I knew that cat was hiding something.
And for you eager beavers out there here, with Fabaos permission, is a pic of the cat and pedigrees proving its dominant to Galaxy Star and recessive to Exotic Journey.



Dominant to Galaxy Star
Mum is a starter, Dad has Galaxy Star, the line predates Soul Whisper so the Galaxy Star is pure as it was the most recessive eye at that time.
Baby shows NEW OPALINE eye which must be dominant to Galaxy Star.



Recessive to Exotic Journey
Mum is a starter , dad has exotic journey.
Baby has Exotic Journey so mum hides exotic journey or something more recessive



Just Galaxy Burst to go and its placed.
Fantastic work as always Fabao

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Looking at your questions, BreeAnn, I think you are not looking at release dates. A lot of people don't but it's important when looking at new traits or even fairly new traits like Galaxy Star. Sorry this is long-winded but I tend to be that way and it's a good teaching opportunity as many people forget to look at dates.

Opaline was released with the Halloween cats as no new trait releases during the summer.
I believe the release date when people could first get Halloweenn cats was October 10, 2016.
Fabao discovered the Opaline on 12/6/2016.
This chart is the discovery chart so that kittybox was birthed on 12/6/2016
The age of the dad's parents are ages 160 days and 168 days.

I often use this site to do calendar count backs
https://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadd.html
Subtracting 160 days from 12/6/2016 gives us the birthdate of the dad Nugget as 6/29/2016. Mom's is earlier.
Therefore Opaline could not come from Kurt the dad because his parent's have no possibility of coming from a Halloween starter.
Also Kurt cannot hide anything more recessive than Galaxy Star becasue in June 2016 nothing was more recessive than Galaxy Star so it is an automatic pure. The one eye known to be recessive to Galaxy Star was discovered in November 2016 with the Halloween release so it is not in play.

Therefore
Mom Ambra, Halloween Starter, gen evergreen shown
Dad Kurt, Galaxy Star shown and hid
Baby Opaline shown proving Opaline is Mom's hid and that it is dominant to Galaxy Star.

We have proven Mom's hid is Opaline

Next chart
Mom Ambra, Hallowee Starter, gen evergreen shown, Opaline hid
Dad Remy Exotic Journey shown
Baby shows Exotic Journey. Baby cannot hide genesis evergeen so therefore must hide Opaline. Therefore Opaline is recessive to Exotic Journey.

So Opaline has to be between Exotic Journey and Galaxy Star. The testing range is

proven recessive to Exotic Journey
Galaxy Burst
proven dominant to Galaxy Star

Only needs to be tested against Galaxy Burst to be placed

Dates when things are introduced are a factor when placing new traits.

[Arwen Swordthain]

Not Yet BreeAnn Harvey isn't old enough yet and I would need to check with Fabao regarding the results he has had from Randi. Rest assured when he gets further results to aid in placing this eye fullythey will be posted here.

(12-12-2016 04:46 PM)Brunabug Nightfire Wrote:  Just checking to find out if the cat Harvey showing the Opaline eye was tested to see if Galaxy Star is hidden eye?
Also Checking if Randi the cat showing Exotic Journey has been tested to prove to be hiding the Opaline eyes.
Thanks~BreeAnn

(12-06-2016 10:43 AM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  Congrats Fabao.I knew that cat was hiding something.
And for you eager beavers out there here, with Fabaos permission, is a pic of the cat and pedigrees proving its dominant to Galaxy Star and recessive to Exotic Journey.



Dominant to Galaxy Star
Mum is a starter, Dad has Galaxy Star, the line predates Soul Whisper so the Galaxy Star is pure as it was the most recessive eye at that time.
Baby shows NEW OPALINE eye which must be dominant to Galaxy Star.



Recessive to Exotic Journey
Mum is a starter , dad has exotic journey.
Baby has Exotic Journey so mum hides exotic journey or something more recessive



Just Galaxy Burst to go and its placed.
Fantastic work as always Fabao

[Brunabug Nightfire]

Thanks Kayla.
But the reason I am asking is you can't go by release dates. There was an issue that happened a few years back when Wendi and Charles took over the charts from Liriel and a fur that was discovered was assumed to have been released with a certain collection, when in reality it had been released in the collection before but was never actually discovered or shown up on any cats tell the next release. So even though we are pretty sure that certain traits are new in releases we can't be 100% sure tell we breed OS to prove that a trait is actually hiding. This is why a lot of the proofs sent into to SAGA are not exce because it goes by assumptions. It has to be shown not assumed. They need to actually see it. And the only way to actually see something is to open up OS and breed them to more recessive traits to allow the hidden trait to show (because the hidden is more dominant).

I am just making this statement so that every one understands why SAGA charts are slower at getting things posted. It is because they are checking and double checking...they don't want to have to go back a year or even months later and make corrections.

It is always a good thing to open up an OS and breed it out to actually see the truth of what is hiding behind the kitty. Traits can be hiding for generations and generations.

~-BreeAnn

(12-12-2016 06:51 PM)Kayla Woodrunner Wrote:  Looking at your questions, BreeAnn, I think you are not looking at release dates. A lot of people don't but it's important when looking at new traits or even fairly new traits like Galaxy Star. Sorry this is long-winded but I tend to be that way and it's a good teaching opportunity as many people forget to look at dates.

Opaline was released with the Halloween cats as no new trait releases during the summer.
I believe the release date when people could first get Halloweenn cats was October 10, 2016.
Fabao discovered the Opaline on 12/6/2016.
This chart is the discovery chart so that kittybox was birthed on 12/6/2016
The age of the dad's parents are ages 160 days and 168 days.

I often use this site to do calendar count backs
https://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadd.html
Subtracting 160 days from 12/6/2016 gives us the birthdate of the dad Nugget as 6/29/2016. Mom's is earlier.
Therefore Opaline could not come from Kurt the dad because his parent's have no possibility of coming from a Halloween starter.
Also Kurt cannot hide anything more recessive than Galaxy Star becasue in June 2016 nothing was more recessive than Galaxy Star so it is an automatic pure. The one eye known to be recessive to Galaxy Star was discovered in November 2016 with the Halloween release so it is not in play.

Therefore
Mom Ambra, Halloween Starter, gen evergreen shown
Dad Kurt, Galaxy Star shown and hid
Baby Opaline shown proving Opaline is Mom's hid and that it is dominant to Galaxy Star.

We have proven Mom's hid is Opaline

Next chart
Mom Ambra, Hallowee Starter, gen evergreen shown, Opaline hid
Dad Remy Exotic Journey shown
Baby shows Exotic Journey. Baby cannot hide genesis evergeen so therefore must hide Opaline. Therefore Opaline is recessive to Exotic Journey.

So Opaline has to be between Exotic Journey and Galaxy Star. The testing range is

proven recessive to Exotic Journey
Galaxy Burst
proven dominant to Galaxy Star

Only needs to be tested against Galaxy Burst to be placed

Dates when things are introduced are a factor when placing new traits.

---

Thanks Arwen,
I really look forward to seeing the hiddens on both these cats, so that I can pass this information on to Wendi and Charles and we can get this new eye listed on the Charts for breeders. I do believe that this is true..but again they need to actually see it.
Appreciate your help.
~BreeAnn

(12-13-2016 01:53 AM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  Not Yet BreeAnn Harvey isn't old enough yet and I would need to check with Fabao regarding the results he has had from Randi. Rest assured when he gets further results to aid in placing this eye fullythey will be posted here.

(12-12-2016 04:46 PM)Brunabug Nightfire Wrote:  Just checking to find out if the cat Harvey showing the Opaline eye was tested to see if Galaxy Star is hidden eye?
Also Checking if Randi the cat showing Exotic Journey has been tested to prove to be hiding the Opaline eyes.
Thanks~BreeAnn

(12-06-2016 10:43 AM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  Congrats Fabao.I knew that cat was hiding something.
And for you eager beavers out there here, with Fabaos permission, is a pic of the cat and pedigrees proving its dominant to Galaxy Star and recessive to Exotic Journey.



Dominant to Galaxy Star
Mum is a starter, Dad has Galaxy Star, the line predates Soul Whisper so the Galaxy Star is pure as it was the most recessive eye at that time.
Baby shows NEW OPALINE eye which must be dominant to Galaxy Star.



Recessive to Exotic Journey
Mum is a starter , dad has exotic journey.
Baby has Exotic Journey so mum hides exotic journey or something more recessive



Just Galaxy Burst to go and its placed.
Fantastic work as always Fabao

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Was that around the time Foxie Salt and Pepper was most recessive? Because I remembered around that time, people knew there was something uot there more recessive but not found. I believe something was said at a KC talk about it. Could be wrong since none of th etalks I did attend mentioned it. But I do remember a few people telling me there was somthing more recessive out there at the time. Since I didn't own a Foxie and was working on getting one at the time, I didn't pay much mind to something yet to be discovered -- then of course I had Foxies coming out of my ears in a few months time. It was probaby Snowcream that took a long time coming out since it barely had time to celebrate before Aby Dark Choco took over. I do remember at the time some people thought Black Bengal was more recessive than the Foxie Salts but that was mostly because most people used the Fox to pull the Bengal out so most Bengals at the time had Foxes hid. I think at the time though on the forum it was pretty clear Black Bengal was dom. It's very much like what happened this year with the Red Burm and Choco Burm. People really wanted the Red Burm to be most recessive but they were using the Choco Burm which was more recessive to pull. On the forum, though, the charts were pretty clear Red was dom to the Choco. Being able to see the charts publicly really helps to keep things clear although I do think some people like things obsfuscated for a bit when it translates into higher prices.

Lately I think people are getting better at finding super-recessives so they don't seem to be undiscovered as long. So I seriously doubt Soul Whisper was released last Spring with last season's final collection. But maybe KC did. Maybe they released it with the summer cats but I doubt it. I think KC would have said if there was a new trait to be found during the summer because it would be unprecedented. KC is fairly good about trumpeting major new changes and that would be a major change.

However, it's cool if that's Saga's standards. As long as standards are clearly defined, it makes it easier to know what needs to be sent in. Since Opaline has been nicely limited on the forum, people are already testing it against Galaxy Burst. If it turns out to be dom to Galaxy Burst, Saga won't have to worry about the proof agaisnt Galaxy Star. If it's recessive to Galaxy Burst, then the only proof acceptable would be 2 Opalines produce Galaxy Star. Since Galaxy Star is being used to pop Opaline, that will probably happen sooner rather than later. The other possible chart wouldn't work for Saga. Given that on new recessives, Saga needs two proofs, Opaline against Soul Whisper producing Galaxy Star would not be an acceptable Saga proof until a second proof on Soul Whisper is received.

[Arwen Swordthain]

Has it ever occured to Wendi and Charles they could simply ask Callie if theres any eye traits undiscovered from previous releases? Or if its Opalines release thats in question ask about that. If the worry is Soul Whisper was potentially hiding undiscovered behind Fabaos Galaxy Star then get the release of that confirmed.
Seems to me that rather than speculating on proofs the community agrees are good based on current knowledge they could simply ask her instead! And Kayla is correct, they way we look for recessives now has changed so much its highly unlikely more recessive traits would remain undiscovered all summer esp since lots of us tested Kawaii Kitties fully.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

To be fair, I think the current Saga vetters have been burned a little. When they took over the chart, there were some furs/eyes that needed to be tweaked as they were close to the correct position but not quite. Probably as they corrected past errors, they created a policy of being very careful because people do want accurate info. Timely is important too, though. I can understand their wanting the proof to be in one chart without needing to refer to dates -- so that in the future they can just pull the chart to confirm how it was placed. As long as people know what they need, it can be provided. I think what was hard before was charts were sent in and not posted and not knowing why not -- whether it was not received or didn't fit their parameters. I realize Breean has the rather thankless job of teaching people what kind of charts the Saga vetters have decided on. The forum based charts may have a different set of parameters because their storage system may allow for dates of discovery. So far it looks to me like both Saga and the Forum-based Charts are working hard to be very accurate. The fact that they have different approaches is ok with me since both focus on accuracy. I think variety is healthy.

I do think it's a good idea to ask KC directly, Arwen, but I would much rather they publish on the forum certain info so it is out there more formally rather than word-of-mouth. I've played the telephone game with students and word-of-mouth can change in really weird ways between the original and the last person who hears it. A listing during the summer might be nice of the previous Halloween-Spring releases and retirements--gives time for everything that year to be discovered and formalizes it. And if something is out there that has yet to be discovered for whatever reason, they can put a ? or "..." or something on the list. (Laughs, imaginig the furor a "..." would cause as people run to the store to grab starters). They do send notices through KC Addicts but I miss those 75% the time. The forum is nice cuz things stay up and you can browse.

If I'm here in the summer, I'll put it up as a suggestion. Otherwise I hope someone else will. Right now is their busy season so not a good time to make a summer suggestion. They do look at the feedback section because I've seen them incorporate some suggestions in updates and trait releases. Equinox used to be good about posting news like retired or limited traits but I haven't seen her name on postings in a while. So they may not have the staff or time and may just let us figure it out -- which to be honest, all of us together really do do a good job of figuring it out. The KC community and the way we work together is pretty amazing. And as a group we have created informational resources I have not seen in any other breedable. Still confirmation from top brass is always good.

[Arwen Swordthain]

I agree something official on the forum from KittyCats themselves would be very helpful, including about this years Ltd Ed Halloween traits, I'll be honest I haven't trawled the forums looking but a thread in the news section would be sufficient.
Notices are great if you get them but time limited, wecan no longer see the one about traits that were retired prior to halloween although I suspect that might be in the forum news section but without checking can't be sure.
Yes a 1 proof chart is by far the most ideal and I'm sure Fabao will post it once he has it but as we all know pulling hids takes time and multiple chart proofs are not unusual from starters and this is what we are seeing here. If everyone waited until they had the one proof chart things would not move very fast at all.
BreeAnn is doing a great job under what seem to be rather difficult circumstances, at this point approaching Callie might get the answers shes seeking faster than waiting for Fabao to produce a galaxy star from under his opaline, after all would need to be from 2 opaline cats to satisfy the criteria and he only has 1. With his schedule at the moment breeding more will be his priority not pulling hids.

(12-15-2016 04:16 AM)Kayla Woodrunner Wrote:  To be fair, I think the current Saga vetters have been burned a little. When they took over the chart, there were some furs/eyes that needed to be tweaked as they were close to the correct position but not quite. Probably as they corrected past errors, they created a policy of being very careful because people do want accurate info. Timely is important too, though. I can understand their wanting the proof to be in one chart without needing to refer to dates -- so that in the future they can just pull the chart to confirm how it was placed. As long as people know what they need, it can be provided. I think what was hard before was charts were sent in and not posted and not knowing why not -- whether it was not received or didn't fit their parameters. I realize Breean has the rather thankless job of teaching people what kind of charts the Saga vetters have decided on. The forum based charts may have a different set of parameters because their storage system may allow for dates of discovery. So far it looks to me like both Saga and the Forum-based Charts are working hard to be very accurate. The fact that they have different approaches is ok with me since both focus on accuracy. I think variety is healthy.

I do think it's a good idea to ask KC directly, Arwen, but I would much rather they publish on the forum certain info so it is out there more formally rather than word-of-mouth. I've played the telephone game with students and word-of-mouth can change in really weird ways between the original and the last person who hears it. A listing during the summer might be nice of the previous Halloween-Spring releases and retirements--gives time for everything that year to be discovered and formalizes it. And if something is out there that has yet to be discovered for whatever reason, they can put a ? or "..." or something on the list. (Laughs, imaginig the furor a "..." would cause as people run to the store to grab starters). They do send notices through KC Addicts but I miss those 75% the time. The forum is nice cuz things stay up and you can browse.

If I'm here in the summer, I'll put it up as a suggestion. Otherwise I hope someone else will. Right now is their busy season so not a good time to make a summer suggestion. They do look at the feedback section because I've seen them incorporate some suggestions in updates and trait releases. Equinox used to be good about posting news like retired or limited traits but I haven't seen her name on postings in a while. So they may not have the staff or time and may just let us figure it out -- which to be honest, all of us together really do do a good job of figuring it out. The KC community and the way we work together is pretty amazing. And as a group we have created informational resources I have not seen in any other breedable. Still confirmation from top brass is always good.

[Wendi Lavendel]

Hi all, just wanted to clarify some things

1. We asked KittyCats maybe a year or two ago to confirm when traits are released or let us know when we haven't yet found undiscovered traits, they said no. I totally understand why, so we're not going to begrudge that at all. The only exception is that as limited edition traits are discovered, they do publish that they are limited edition.

2. We can't use dates/ages of cats as part of a proof. Those of you who've been around a while remember that when Ocicat Chocolate was discovered, it was assumed to be part of the Halloween 2011 release, because it was found in one of those starters. However, it was then discovered within a few days that it was actually from the July 2011 update! So clearly you can see why we do not use ages of cats as proof that "this trait can't be from that cat because it's too old".

We are very careful about doing the proofs - in the past, chart managers were pressured to get the information out in a more timely fashion and were less discriminating about how concrete a proof should be, and as a result, there have been a few errors. We're not faulting anyone at all - that's just how things were done in the past. Since Bree, Charles, and I have become the new chart managers decided that we would value quality of content over timeliness: it was more important to maintain the integrity of the information on the charts than it was to just pump things out quickly. Too many breeders make important decisions about breeding/pricing/buying, and mistakes can result in loss of $L/$ or wasted time on projects. So we chose to take the extra time and effort to make sure that the information in the charts is 100% correct. This is also why we have such a stringent process that we follow from the time we receive a proof until the time it ends up updated on the charts. It does mean that doing one proof can be a lot of work (OMG a few times I took a couple of the confetti proofs to work and used one of the classroom white boards to track the colours through 4 or 5 generations ) but we believe that this is a good trade off. And it's interesting to note that since the charts have changed hands, the only mistakes made so far have been minor typos that were noticed and fixed pretty quickly, thanks to the watchful eyes of some of the community members!

I love that people use the forums to keep track of the newer traits, that helps us a lot when people send us messages with links about new discoveries - we don't have much free time to browse postings so we're super grateful for those who send us this information through the regular channels (IM to SagaKitty Resident or email to sagakittysl@gmail.com); we really only have time to manage those 2 channels so we are so appreciative of those of you whom have become our regular "watch-cats" <3 We count you as part of our team and could not do this without your help

That is all, happy breeding, and thanks again to the community: the charts would be just a giant coloured spreadsheet without everyone's help

PS: Don't forget, if you need space/prims/kibble to breed for new traits or help place traits on the charts, you can apply for a mat at the Breeding Space! We would love to have you there!