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+--- Thread: Dispelling a common breeding myth (/showthread.php?tid=4973)
Dispelling a common breeding myth - Nynaveve Wirefly - 08-28-2012 01:04 PM
During the Kitty Kollege class on Sunday, someone mentioned that they had not yet discovered the hidden eye of their Le Tigre. They had bred it with multiple partners, each with different eyes. Most recently, they had partnered it with a mate who had oddy rainbow eyes, yet still the OS box showed the genesis eye of the Le Tigre. Out of all the OS of the Le Tigre, only one box showed an eye color, which was Blue Ice. The assumption was that since the partner with the oddy rainbow eye did not "pull" the Le Tigre's hidden eye, it is hiding something incredibly recessive.
I would like to state here and now that this situation contains several breeding myths and I would like to dispel them, for the good of the breeding community.
Myth: "I bred my cat with a partner who shows oddy rainbow and the partner didn't pull my cat's hidden eye, so that means my cat has to have an OMFG recessive eye!"
False. There are 2 things wrong with this statement:
First of all, there is no such thing as “pulling” any hidden trait. Either the cats throw/tosses them, or they don’t. If you believe in magic with KittyCats, I suggest you stop reading now, because I am about to break the spell. When 2 cats mate, they each ping the server. The female says “I am going to toss my hidden/shown eye”. The male does the same. THEN the server determines, by order of dominance, which of those eye traits must show or hide on the OS box. This is how it works for every single trait. It’s that simple. There is a 50/50 chance for every single trait, on every single box, with every single mating, whether a shown or hidden trait will throw/toss. Therefore, no trait can “pull” another trait. If you breed an oddy rainbow cat with a genesis cat and get genesis back, it simply means the cat has continued to toss it’s shown genesis eye. It tells you NOTHING about the hidden eye.
Secondly, simply because I mate an oddy rainbow eye with a pink ice eye, and get a pink ice eye back does NOT mean that cat is hiding OMFG recessive. It means the cat simply did not toss its hidden eye with that breeding. IF I got an oddy rainbow eye back, THEN I would know there’s something peculiar there that I might want to look into. Simply because I get pink ice back after 3 or 4 boxes tells me nothing, other than I have a very stubborn cat with pink ice eyes, or that it’s a cat with pure pink ice eyes.
In the situation I mentioned from our Sunday class, that breeder found 1 box with blue ice eyes that was an OS of the Le Tigre. It turns out that those were the hidden eye of the Le Tigre, but because of this myth, because of multiple breedings with very recessive eyed partners, and getting nothing but the shown genesis eye back, this breeder dismissed the blue ice eyed box. After that discussion, and hearing that these myths are being actively spread through the breeding community, I felt it necessary to explain from a very practical standpoint how breeding and trait determination works at a primary level.
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Liriel Garnet - 08-28-2012 01:17 PM
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!
Quite frankly I am getting quite distressed with the amount of misinformation that seems to be cropping up lately, and I don't know where it's coming from, but this particular question is becoming more and more common, and I honestly wish whoever is spreading this nonsense would either clarify (if the people are misunderstanding what is being said) or stop talking at all on this particular subject. Spreading such utter twaddle is a disservice to the breeding community.
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Sanura Snowpaw - 08-28-2012 01:26 PM
There is also the fact that the genesis is MORE dominant it has a higher chance of showing then anything else. That is why there is luck to breeding because you can be unlucky and get a stubborn cat or you can be lucky and get a nice kitteh who loves to pass you it's hidden stuff! I nearly filed a ticket on one starter because all I could get from him was the retired Bengal Snow but I stuck with him and his offspring and breeding back only to find his hidden fur when he was 105 days old. Which turned out to be Ocicat Blue.
This seems to pop up whenever there are new starters, so I'm not sure where the misinformation starts. It actually reminds me of back before we knew so much and the crazy ideas people came up with on breeding.
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Saga Felix - 08-28-2012 04:25 PM
Thanks, Nyn.
The whole idea of "pulling" traits has bugged me to no end for over a year now. Many use the expression just as an expression - but as a result, new breeders get confused and thinks that one trait CAN actually "pull" another.
Cat A randomly throws shown or hidden trait - Cat B does the same - those two then becomes the kitten's traits, and the more dominant becomes the shown. Simple as that
There is no such things as one trait "pulling" another. Ever. Cat A has NO clue which traits Cat B has, or which one it's going to pass to the kitten. Believe me, however tempting it can be to believe in - the cats do NOT plan their breedings... The scripts do, and they do it randomly
-Saga
P.S. The links to my Google Docs are found in my signature, my in-world profile, the longest thread on the KittyCatS General Forum etc. - and while most use the dominance charts, I will recommend reading about breeding in the documents as well, if you are in any way in doubt.
While the fashion in furs, eyes and traits change all the time, the breeding scripts have not changed since Day 1 with KittyCatS - so the documents are still good, even if they're not as newly updated as the charts
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Kayleigh McMillan - 08-28-2012 07:06 PM
Time will learn people more and while they are practising breeding over the time via all these awesome classes given.
There are so many newer people in such a short time I believe the SL9B kitty triggered that LOL
We all have been there: searching for answers, asking around and I actually loved that journey and the "mistakes" I made sometimes with a fortunate and unexpected outcome.
It is one thing to read or hear how it is a second thing is though to actually do it over and over again.
I have to say I learned most from my wrong asumptions and "mistakes" and this placed what I learned via Saga's lectures in a totally new perspective.
I think making mistakes and having wrong asumptions are actually very educational and it can bring awesome kitties also
This could also explain why a group of newer people think they figured something out and spread the word while in time it turns out to be different than they thought.
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Devilness Chant - 08-29-2012 10:44 AM
To me "pulling" just means you used something more recessive than the hiding traitor the trait you're wanting to move. Which means the kitty gods (server) let it pass. lol If it bounces the trait you're using to "pull" then chances are it's the same trait or something more recessive.
But I like my childlike romantic kitty version of breeding. Every box is like Christmas! The heck with the math and statistics! It's still the rush when you see that box sitting there taunting you with the unknown till you click on it or look in chat for those who have the magical box that tells you when it's made.
Yes we need the math and charts, don't get me wrong. (I use them all the time lol) But never lose the childlike fascination that Santa Server gave you a gift.
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Kayleigh McMillan - 08-29-2012 01:32 PM
(08-29-2012 10:44 AM)devilness chant Wrote: To me "pulling" just means you used something more recessive than the hiding traitor the trait you're wanting to move. Which means the kitty gods (server) let it pass. lol If it bounces the trait you're using to "pull" then chances are it's the same trait or something more recessive.
But I like my childlike romantic kitty version of breeding. Every box is like Christmas! The heck with the math and statistics! It's still the rush when you see that box sitting there taunting you with the unknown till you click on it or look in chat for those who have the magical box that tells you when it's made.
Yes we need the math and charts, don't get me wrong. (I use them all the time lol) But never lose the childlike fascination that Santa Server gave you a gift.
I so agree with you Dev!
Ofcourse the breeding rules are important to have better influence on our projects but the magical feeling i don't want to lose this makes breeding so awesome and surprising.
Sometimes I breed two 9T kitties together I grabbed from the market purposely not looking in their pedigree just to receive a complete surprise and investigate the logic behind the breed later
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Hamilton Lecker - 09-05-2012 11:30 AM
I love this thread.. it proves what I have thought from day 1...The KittyCatS SERVER rules
Yes it is very important to understand the mechanics of traits and the logic of "trying" to get where you want to go, AND I follow Saga's notes and charts all the time, but just like RL breeding (I bred Persians for almost 30 years), there is simply no 100% guarantee what you will get! To me it is the basic simple FUN and Magical surprise each time a new kitten arrives.. yes.. just like "Christmas" all the time... I love them all
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Charlotte Calael - 09-05-2012 12:51 PM
hahaha I remember when people told me i had to have plenty difrent furs in my kittycats "tree" so i then in the future could pull out any fur of the once in it, so i in future could breed out all types of fur into my "breeding program". Sadly it did not work so well for me back then XD
RE: Dispelling a common breeding myth - Kayleigh McMillan - 09-05-2012 06:18 PM
(09-05-2012 12:51 PM)Charlotte Calael Wrote: hahaha I remember when people told me i had to have plenty difrent furs in my kittycats "tree" so i then in the future could pull out any fur of the once in it, so i in future could breed out all types of fur into my "breeding program". Sadly it did not work so well for me back then XD
LOL that's hilarious!
Yes we all learned in time I think