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MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - anna Acanthus - 03-08-2012 07:34 AM
As i do have a rather dispersed mind, yesterday's Balinese episode brought another point to mind for me which i've been thinking of having a natter about. I've often been a bit stuck because of this.
Now of course it's very nice to have Balinese hiding behind a pretty and very recessive Aby B&S but when it comes to trying to pull it out it is a very sticky biz unless of course you have another Balinese to breed it out with.
In fact if i had the choice between shown B&S or Bluepoint, for example, i'd take the Blue every time. I'm more likely to have a fur recessive to Blue than i am to B&S ( and well traited too) and if the higher than Blue shows when breeding i can know for sure the Balinese is there.
Of course when you suspect a starter of hiding something really good the best thing to do is try it with the most recessive fur you can get hold of, that way if you get that shown fur you can know you are maybe onto a good thing.
This of course is just an example but goes for any kind of trait.
I've often thought this for example at auction when i hear things like - WOW !! Siamese flame hiding Oci Choc- when in fact it would be much more wow if it were hiding behind a Silver Tabby with a 9T parent for example, much easier to pull out the Oci Choc and get them traits in fast.
I do like going for very long shots sometimes but it can or cannot pay off and if i'd paid a fortune for a great OS i'd be wanting results as fast as poss i think.
So i'm not at all in a hurry to eliminate some rather Dom furs from my stock as they can be very useful when carrying a lot of good traits
There are variations of options i could go through but too long and confusing to go through them all.
Anyhow this is my idea on the subject, and i may be missing a point or two here so any 2 cents are welcome
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - Khea Karas - 03-08-2012 08:33 AM
Yes I believe this exact issue was mentioned at the alleged auction last night and the breeder turned around and basically argued it was false, which irked me a great deal. But it made me also come to the conclusion and certainly explain why we always see "offsprings" from the seller instead of actual showing coats.
Anna, I totally agree with you on this point, and I wish more breeders would follow this rule. Especially when you are selling a cat that is so valuable, to at least give the person who buys it a chance to pull out the trait they paid so much for!
And to new breeders - DO NOT not be tempted to buy such a cat because it is EXTREMELY difficult for even experienced breeders to get this hidden trait out from such a recessive one, so do not even bother to waste your money....please. Do not be talked into believing that this gorgeous recessive cat, will make it any easier to pull out that super recessive hidden trait. Because the reality is, UNLESS you already have that super recessive hidden trait in your cattery..then it is almost impossible to do so.
Conclusion: Breed your RECESSIVE traits to well traited dominant ones. This will make your breeding life, and anyone who buys your future projects a more rewarding and enjoyable one.
Never underestimate the power of a "ghetto gem" kitty. 
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - Liriel Garnet - 03-08-2012 10:18 AM
I think that your thinking is absolutely correct, Anna!
I've got a Siamese Flame hiding Oci Choccy -- and except for the fact that a very dear friend has a choccy boy and was kind enough to offer to breed one of her choccy boys with that girl, it'd have taken me forever to pull the coat on my own, because I had absolutely no coat between the two to be able to know if the offspring got her shown flame or her hidden choccy.
Not everyone is lucky enough to have friends like her, so please remember this -- it's much easier to pull a very recessive coat from behind a very dominant one than from behind one that's almost as recessive as the one you're trying to pull. This goes for every other trait as well.
Saga's talk transcript has some great examples of this if you want to read further on it for any that have questions!
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - Saga Felix - 03-08-2012 12:52 PM
I fully agree with everything said here.
When I decided I wanted to breed traits into tawnies (back when tawnies in themselves were WOW), did I breed them to my traited bengal snows? Noooo!! I would NEVER do that!
Instead, I bred a tawny with a 9-traited Silver Tabby - and obviously, the kitten was then a poorly traited silver tabby. -A 4-traited Silver Tabby w. 18 carat gold eyes, to be exact. BUT that 4-traited Silver Tabby later became the grandfather of Ozzy (8T Tawny w. Ody.Rainbow eyes & Round Ears), AND Ozzy's 9-traited tawny cousin w. the same traits + shade.
How, you might ask? -Well, simple. The 4-traited Tabby was of course hiding tawny + 9 traits, odyssey rainbow eyes & rounds ears. It showed none of that - but it was there. So, next step: I mated the silver tabby w. my 9-traited black russians that had the same traits - and when they had black russian kittens, I KNEW the tawny was hiding. -By that time, the trait-count was up to 7.
-Next step, I mated the russian to a 9-traited burmese platinum - and again, as soon as I had a platinum (or well, a snow - since that was his hidden fur, and he ALWAYS threw that
), again I knew that the tawny was hiding. -Meanwhile, trait-count was up to 8 + the 9th hidden.From there it was simple. Mate two of those together and wait for win-win. -Yes, I had many 8-traited russians and bengals that MIGHT hide tawny at that time - but eventually, I got my "perfect tawny". -Of course, the process was SO long that by that time, tawnies were no longer particularly special in themselves - but since noone else I know of managed 9-traited tawnies, especially not w. odyssey rainbow eyes, (unless they bought them from me, ofc
) they sell rather well anyway.Now... If I had mated that tawny with a snow in the first place, WHAT could I have mated the kitten with to be sure if the ½-tawny threw it's tawny-fur?? Nothing. -And then my breeding-project would have failed miserably before it had started.
Still, few people realise how valuable super-dominant furred cats are when hiding something super-recessive. I have a Genesis Smokey for sale that hides Aby. Black Silver - does anyone want that?? No... Rather, they go for Oci. Chocos or something, hiding Aby.Black Silver. -And they cheat themselves and make their breeding harder.
Ok, this was a long explanation - all this just to say: Yes, I agree. Do not cheat yourself by mating the most recessive to the 2nd-most recessive - rather, mate the recessive to a well-traited cat with MUCH more dominant fur. THEN you have a kitten that is REALLY worth something, and that you can REALLY make a good cat from - even if it doesn't show so much... it will still be hiding it.
Saga
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - anna Acanthus - 03-08-2012 01:36 PM
Well thanks a lot for your feedback gurlz, that pretty much gets rid of any reserves i could have had about my analysis.
And i'd missed out on that part in Saga'a trait talk, so i could've saved me some neurons by reading more carefully
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - Kayleigh McMillan - 03-09-2012 09:20 AM
I so agree with you here Anna.
It is very hard to pull a hidden very recessive fur out of an other very recessive especially if we don't have the right cat to know the cat gave it's hidden.
It remains to be wild guessing if we have pulled the background out.
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - Liriel Garnet - 03-09-2012 03:26 PM
(03-08-2012 12:52 PM)Saga Felix Wrote: I fully agree with everything said here.
.....
Saga
And your explanation of how you bred Ozzy and all his siblings and cousins is the perfect example of all of this, it makes it very very clear!
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - Nenya Eun - 03-10-2012 03:38 AM
Yay !
So glad that's what I have been doing with my Aby B/S, I mated him with a 9T Silver Tabby
and they gave me a 6T Silver Tabby, can't wait for the other steps !
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - Saga Felix - 03-10-2012 06:26 AM
Whoa! 6 traits already in 2nd gen! -You have yourself a neeeat kitty there, Nenya
Good luck with it.
RE: MORE thoughts about traits and breeding (sighs ) XD - anna Acanthus - 01-30-2014 04:53 PM
Bumping this old thread as it has some usefull and clearly explained informations for those going for the latest true recessives and could save some very costly disappointments.
*At the time , Bali Seal was the new most recessive, Aby B&S the second.