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+--- Thread: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? (/showthread.php?tid=4168)
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Malicia Python - 06-18-2012 12:25 PM
To the too many auctions: I agree, too (just look at today's posts in this forum and count the commercial and non commercial posts).
But I think this is merely a symptom of the oversaturation of the market. There are more breeders/sellers and cats than buyers. And most buyers running after the newest trend finding themselves sitting on a worthless investment after the next thing is discovered. On the long run, I do believe well-bred cats will sell - but the efforts of making them hardly pays off.
I know this is a totally unpopular request, both to the community and to the KC team, but I'll make it anyway: reduce the amounts of cats! I think a little bit might be achieved by introducing the menagerie items, because people now try to convert their unwanted boxes instead of trying to fire-sell them.
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Ethereal Hurricane - 06-18-2012 01:34 PM
(06-18-2012 09:06 AM)anna acanthus Wrote: I'd like to say also that the fact of having way too many auctions per week is causing plenty of damage to the market in itself. I won't go into the reasons as this ought to be pretty obvious.
You should go into the reasons. I'm oblivious as to how so many auctions is harmful.
*Edit* I should clarify my statement. I'm oblivious as to how so many auctions does more harm than good.
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Sara Franco - 06-18-2012 04:31 PM
I couldn't read every post (but I will try later) but I read enough to agree, I feel so sad when some people don't appreciate the cuteness of the kitties, I'm not an old breeder, only 4 months old but I try to make good combinations of my kitties (haven't reached the goals yet) and I feel sad when I think that no one will appreciate how I combined the fur and eyes that match..etc but I'm still trying because it will make me happy to reach the goals even if won't be so appreciated.
I wish we do something about people going for the most recessive not the cutest or the well combined ones, maybe there is a movement we can do? can't think of something now, but there should be something we can do to encourage people trying to put more efforts on combining cute traits, some fun contests (not money oriented ones) or events. I'm sure we can come up with something, any suggestions?
It would be nice if KC did something about it but we should act instead of waiting something to happen.
(06-18-2012 12:25 PM)Malicia Python Wrote: I know this is a totally unpopular request, both to the community and to the KC team, but I'll make it anyway: reduce the amounts of cats! I think a little bit might be achieved by introducing the menagerie items, because people now try to convert their unwanted boxes instead of trying to fire-sell them.
I'm glad that this started, now people started to menagerie instead of fire sales already I think
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Bea Shamrock - 06-19-2012 02:31 AM
(06-18-2012 12:25 PM)Malicia Python Wrote: To the too many auctions: I agree, too (just look at today's posts in this forum and count the commercial and non commercial posts).
I know this is a totally unpopular request, both to the community and to the KC team, but I'll make it anyway: reduce the amounts of cats! I think a little bit might be achieved by introducing the menagerie items, because people now try to convert their unwanted boxes instead of trying to fire-sell them.
I don't see how many auctions can damage the market -they're all different and they are attended by different people. I think what is needed is knowledgeable auctioneers in all of them and nicely traited kitties or less traited kitties with lots of potential. If those parts of the auctions are regulated a bit more, then I think auctions will be really beneficial to everyone.
As for reducing the amount of cats....that's up to each person in my opinion. I will have all the kitties I want and can afford and that will not hurt the market a bit. Education is most times the best policy...as Rayne was saying -let's help new breeders and kitty carers to see that "bigger is better" doesn't really apply most of the time.
What's the fun of having a balinese with all genesis traits unless you intend to start a project with it? There's lots of fruit eyed-kitties out there with gen furs being sold before they're bred at least for one generation. Often you'll end up wit ha pure genesis fur kitty in those cases. It can be fun to try to breed them out with lots of patience, or you can rant about it and leave it there.
I'm not in this for the money. I think we should start valuing more kitties belonging to a line and worked on so that they're nicely combined rather than going for the one most recessive trait and paying for it lots. Reading these posts shows me i'm not the only one that thinks this.
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Malicia Python - 06-19-2012 06:18 AM
Bea, I feel a little misquoted. I didnt write that there were too many auctions and they damage the market. I said the too many auctions (and one can argue if they are really too many, but I think so) are a symptom of an oversaturated market. Therefore IMO, the only way to get cats valued up is to reduce their numbers.
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Tad Carlucci - 06-19-2012 06:41 AM
A number of factors work on the market.
It's summer. We've seen down-turns over summer with online activities of all sorts for as long as there's been an Internet. As bad as this effect it, it's a lot better than it was 20 years ago when virtually all customers were college students using free accounts.
There's a bit of burn-out because of all the special collections earlier this year. It was particularly bad this year, but it's finally working itself out and, from what I've read, the designers will show more moderation in the future.
There's a huge over-stock, especially in boxes. The recent addition of the Menagerie specials has certainly had a big effect there. I see another thread suggesting more there .. I second that and suggest the price be a bit lower, and then a third at an even higher price .. to encourage more to turn in overstock and create some differential values in those specials.
So, while things are currently down, and will probably remain so for a few more weeks, I'm hopeful because some of the effect is normal cyclic and the company seems to be making the right moves; so things should improve.
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Chelle Zimmer - 06-19-2012 09:20 AM
(06-18-2012 12:00 PM)Nenya Eun Wrote:(06-18-2012 09:06 AM)anna acanthus Wrote: I'd like to say also that the fact of having way too many auctions per week is causing plenty of damage to the market in itself. I won't go into the reasons as this ought to be pretty obvious.
I so agree with all you said, especially that sentence about auctions, Anna !
As a successful Auctioneer, I have to jump in on this. I've been auctioning for a year now. I have seen auctioneers come and go. Auctioneers have a great responsibility to the community and to the market itself. In order to sustain the market, you have to know what you are doing. Auctioneers should be well trained and knowledgeable about the kitties they are selling.
Auction kitties should be well bred, and have something that make them special. Not some things you can see everyday. They should be unique in some way. Not something you can find everywhere else. If we, as auctioneers do not know backwards and forwards about the cats, or set standards and monitor what goes on the panels, that is what hurts the market.
It is erroneous to say that auctions hurt the market. There are auctioneers at NUMEROUS markets (and I'm NOT just talking about where I am at. I'd name names but I don't want to leave anyone out.) that get OUTSTANDING prices for the kitties they are auctioning. But with all the auctions popping up, there are unfortunately auctions that are struggling for many reasons.
I have to agree with RAYNE and say, if we as members of this community attend auctions where prices are well below where they should be just to get the steal, then we are hurting the market ourselves. He is right, we need to value the work and breeding that the breeder has worked so long and so hard to get where they are at. Those are the kitties that you see on these auctioneers panels that are getting results. (AND YES, I am talking about auctioneers at other markets, not just my own.)
I try to go and support every auction I can, but its just impossible to hit them all. I seldom see other auctioneers attending mine. Thank you to those few of you, that do come. Please invite me to your next one.
I think this is a great community and let's all work together!
Chelle
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Khea Karas - 06-19-2012 10:01 AM
(06-19-2012 09:20 AM)Chelle Zimmer Wrote:(06-18-2012 12:00 PM)Nenya Eun Wrote:(06-18-2012 09:06 AM)anna acanthus Wrote: I'd like to say also that the fact of having way too many auctions per week is causing plenty of damage to the market in itself. I won't go into the reasons as this ought to be pretty obvious.
I so agree with all you said, especially that sentence about auctions, Anna !
As a successful Auctioneer, I have to jump in on this. I've been auctioning for a year now. I have seen auctioneers come and go. Auctioneers have a great responsibility to the community and to the market itself. In order to sustain the market, you have to know what you are doing. Auctioneers should be well trained and knowledgeable about the kitties they are selling.
Auction kitties should be well bred, and have something that make them special. Not some things you can see everyday. They should be unique in some way. Not something you can find everywhere else. If we, as auctioneers do not know backwards and forwards about the cats, or set standards and monitor what goes on the panels, that is what hurts the market.
It is erroneous to say that auctions hurt the market. There are auctioneers at NUMEROUS markets (and I'm NOT just talking about where I am at. I'd name names but I don't want to leave anyone out.) that get OUTSTANDING prices for the kitties they are auctioning. But with all the auctions popping up, there are unfortunately auctions that are struggling for many reasons.
I have to agree with RAYNE and say, if we as members of this community attend auctions where prices are well below where they should be just to get the steal, then we are hurting the market ourselves. He is right, we need to value the work and breeding that the breeder has worked so long and so hard to get where they are at. Those are the kitties that you see on these auctioneers panels that are getting results. (AND YES, I am talking about auctioneers at other markets, not just my own.)
I try to go and support every auction I can, but its just impossible to hit them all. I seldom see other auctioneers attending mine. Thank you to those few of you, that do come. Please invite me to your next one.
I think this is a great community and let's all work together!
I agree with Chelle. Experience and knowledge of an auctioneer goes a long way. Whether it be the selection of cats on offer, or enough breeding knowledge to be able to "sell" the cat to the audience at its rightful market price. Auctioneers need to know their stuff.
Are there too may auctions? Yes. Auctions used to be a 3 time a week event that everyone looked forward too, and as such would only showcase their best cats, and the buyers would come knowing they have a chance to get a special cat and the chance of a bargain. Now with them happening 3 times a day almost, sellers will put up a cat just to fill a panel without care of the quality and set lower opening bids in hope of selling it. Buyers will come yes, but the fact that there will be one tomorrow or next day gives a feeling of..."I can wait a bit longer for the price to drop", or knowing that Tuesdays auctions may not be as popular as Fridays so will therefore save my lindens and get a better deal. All this drives down prices and its a vicious cycle.
In particular, one thing that pisses me off more, are sellers who set starting bids so low, or even at open prices. This does more damage to the market than anything else. Just because your starting price is low does not mean you will get a bid war or even a bid at all. All it does is gives the impression that the cat is pretty much worthless, or it will go for the opening bid of 500L and you are helping to push down prices further.
For example, if you know you cat is worth 5K... try to set it for 3K start bid...its still an attractive bargain! Dont be trapped into thinking you cat will only sell if you have a lower opening bid. This is where we go wrong and screw ourselves and the market completely.
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Liriel Garnet - 06-19-2012 10:27 AM
Tagging onto Khea's only because it's the last post, but there's some great advice in these numerous posts that we can all take to heart.
Whoever said they don't support fire-sales -- I for one agree. Yes, I miss out on steals, but I can live with that because I know I'm not contributing to the decline of the secondary market prices.
As auction patrons, we need to be aware of the skill and knowledge of the auctioneers, we need to do our OWN homework on our cats we put up for sale, we need to set reasonable opening bids (as Khea said, listing a kitty worth 5k with a 3k opening is still a great deal if it doesn't get bid up), and we need to help diversify the audience by encouraging friends to attend auctions places they might not normally. The fact that they're held all hours of the day now is great for the global community, IMO, because we can reach different audiences with our special cats.
Auctioneers, the good ones, earn their lindens and then some. They research every cat on every panel, they take the time to ensure a good mix of cats in their auctions, they help the patrons and they help the community by getting the word out about all the yummy kitties being sold at their auctions.
Just a final note. When I started with kittycats last September or so, a 5 or 6 trait cat was considered a VERY nice cat. Now 9T kitties are all over. That said, a lot of people that come in new to the community come in with starters, so they won't have the 9t kitties and tons of special traits that those of us who have been breeding a while do. They still deserve our attention and respect and the opportunity to showcase the kitties they've worked hard to produce!
RE: Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this? - Chelle Zimmer - 06-19-2012 10:44 AM
(06-19-2012 10:27 AM)Liriel Garnet Wrote: Just a final note. When I started with kittycats last September or so, a 5 or 6 trait cat was considered a VERY nice cat. Now 9T kitties are all over. That said, a lot of people that come in new to the community come in with starters, so they won't have the 9t kitties and tons of special traits that those of us who have been breeding a while do. They still deserve our attention and respect and the opportunity to showcase the kitties they've worked hard to produce!
I am so glad you mentioned this Liriel. I have had the privilege of selling some very amazing cats from a new breeder just 3 weeks now into KittyCatS. I, and many others, work hard to bring a huge selection and make sure that we are encouraging NEW breeders to attend and bring their cats to auction. With classes provided at several sims, the mentorship program provided at one sim, I think the well established and experienced Auctioneers, (and yes I am talking about more than just my sim) are doing a great job with that. Thanks for mentioning that Liriel because I and many others do an excellent job of respecting and giving attention to new breeders!
Chelle