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+--- Thread: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules (/showthread.php?tid=3233)
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - Tad Carlucci - 03-29-2012 08:59 AM
There are only two alleles. For the Clover, they let breeding proceed as normal producing a Dominant hiding Recessive offspring. Then they checked if the offspring was "lucky". If so, they replaced the Recessive with Clover, discarding the original Recessive, and applied the paint-job. Once this is done there are still only two alleles; but the visible phenotype in-world (and on the Pedigree Roster page) is the paint-job, and the visible phenotype on the Pedigree View page (the tree-view) is the original Dominant. But there is no guarantee that the hidden Clover allele is not actually dominant over the Dominant passed from one parent.
This is the exact same pattern used for all Special Collection cats and the Clover is, if you look on the Pedigree View page, also marked as a Special Collection cat. The only difference with the Clover is that you bred it (and so effected the Dominant) instead of purchasing a Starter Special Collection cat (which always has a Genesis eye for its Dominant and, therefor, the Recessive is, by definition of the game design, also recessive).
Note, above, I use capitalization (Dominant and Recessive) to mean an allele which would be dominant or recessive (lower case: the genetic factor) in a normal cat.
An earlier poster seems to claim the Pedigree View page proves Clover is always recessive to the Dominant shown there. If this is the case, the contest of luck used to produce the Clover was not a pure lottery as it should have been. Instead, it is what we'd call a "rigged game" intentionally putting those concentrating on the most recessive eye alleles at a disadvantage. That is, unless Clover is the new True Recessive (which remains unproven). We should start seeing hard data on the true place of Clover in the dominance hierarchy over the next few days.
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - anna Acanthus - 03-29-2012 11:09 AM
Well i don't know if you're referring to my post or Sanura's Tad ( Clover True recessive ) and i can't say that i've given the subject totally rigorous thought yet but i've turned over the possibilities in my head and it seems to me that this is the only way Clover can behave without causing havoc in the process.
And imagine it being dominant to the shown eye ; this would mean that it would have to be the most dominant eye which would rather defeat the object of the exercise as everyone would be struggling to get rid of it pretty soon and menagerying their " lucky " kitty.
It would also be going against the established procedure which could i imagine cause a bit of a mess and anyhow i doubt KCR and the team members involved would have introduced this without turning the question inside out as to the consequences.
Sorry to be a bit thick about this but could you explain exactly what you mean by selectively assigned as opposed to randomly assigned please ? I'm trying to include all you are saying in my thought process but becoming rather confused actually ^^.
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - Tad Carlucci - 03-29-2012 11:58 AM
You are correct. There are two ways they could do it, and remain fair. The Clover eye allele could be the new most-recessive allele (called a True Recessive .. to get it both parents must carry it and both parents must pass it) .. this would mean that all possible Pedigree View pages would be genetically correct. The other is, as I suggest, work it like a normal Starter by replacing whatever would have been the hidden, recessive allele and letting the implication of the Pedigree page be misleading, just as it is for all Starters. Both are easy to implement .. actually the code is identical .. the only change is that for the View page to be always correct the only possible choice is a new True Recessive; otherwise the Pedigree pages for the lucky Clovers, as with all starters, is potentially misleading.
Starting with the assumption that Clover is the new True Recessive is a good choice. All I'm saying is be prepared to have that assumption turn out to be wrong. For example, take two lucky Clovers which the View page says both have Platinum Eyes hiding Clover, breed them, and get a mating pair of Clover .. breed those offspring and .. as I'm suggesting .. don't be too surprised that, on average, they produce a Platinum 1 out of 4 times (and Clover the other 3) thereby proving Clover is dominant over Platinum and your initial assumption of it being True Recessive was incorrect.
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - anna Acanthus - 03-29-2012 12:31 PM
Well in the case of the second hypothesis, this is what i meant by it would be necessarily have to be the most dominant. i.e. it could well have happened that 2 gen earths could produced Clover, and this would indeed be a loss of a breed out if for example both were hiding a Bellini eye; making the Clover eye a pretty useless introduction.
And i reckon that with the potions some must have bought and holding back on the breeding until the 3 day period, not to mention some having paid a hefty price for one there'll be some pretty pissed off clients if this proves to be the case.
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - Sara Franco - 03-29-2012 02:48 PM
Ok I looked at my kitties pedigrees again.
On March 18th My (Beach Blue/Changing Leaf or Blue Ice) and (Ody Dream/Unknown) pair got me Ody Dream/Luck Irish Clover, So The Lucky Irish replaced one of the 2 passed traits randomly, if it follows normal rules, I would get a Beach Blue or Changing Leaf or Blue Ice as the visible eyes.
So we can't decide if it is dominant or recessive till we breed.
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - KittyCatS - 03-29-2012 05:29 PM
hi all
I can see what some of you are saying or guessing here. I think our information in the note could have been a bit more clear. Therefore i would like to clarify, as follows:
When we decided to introduce the clover eyes and have them pass, the normal randomness when assigning them was in some cases skipped if you would get a more recessive result with the actual cat genes. This still doesn't say a lot though about where exactly this trait is situated in the ranking.
Based on this additional info, i'm happy to provide an extended period of 5 days from now to get rid of your clover eyes in your cat if you would like to.
The dominance order is in any case correct.
Best Regards
KittyCatS
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - anna Acanthus - 03-29-2012 06:02 PM
OK it finally sunk in for me lol.
Thanks for answering KC
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - Sara Franco - 03-29-2012 06:23 PM
I'm not sure that I got it
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - Tad Carlucci - 03-29-2012 07:44 PM
Whoa! On first reading, what KR said seemed to agree with my idea.
BUT
"skipped if you would get a more recessive result with the actual cat genes"
As I read what KR said, again, it looks like the lottery was biased against those breeding more recessive eyes.
Implication 1: there are more recessive eyes than Clover. Clover is not a True Recessive.
Implication 2: if one was breeding eyes more recessive than Clover and would have gotten Clover but for the recessiveness of the offspring they did not receive Clover. This means it was a "rigged lottery" .. not all players had equal chances dependent solely upon the number of boxes produced during the lottery.
I am hoping KR meant only skipping storing the recessive half of the offspring's eye, not considering the dominant half at all, and always replacing it with Clover if the box was found to be lucky.
I am also hoping KR will come back and post a clear statement of the process. (Pseudo code would be good.) Because, as I read the post above, because someone was breeding a deeply recessive to another deeply recessive, they forfeited their chance at a Clover with that box.
I know it seems like picking nits but if the lottery was rigged against some players because of what they were choosing to breed at the time they should have made it clear before we spend so much time and effort (and a few L$) aligning our breeding cycles to maximize box production during the lottery. Had we (and I'm assuming more breeders than Charm and I fall into this category) known that the lottery was biased toward those breeding the more dominant eyes, we might have not bothered and certainly would not have worked so hard at it.
RE: Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules - Saga Felix - 03-29-2012 09:27 PM
(03-29-2012 05:29 PM)KittyCatS Wrote: When we decided to introduce the clover eyes and have them pass, the normal randomness when assigning them was in some cases skipped if you would get a more recessive result with the actual cat genes.
...
Argh!
No wonder my nicer cats wouldn't make clover eyes, then... They all have Odyssey Rainbow eyes showing.
I wish I had known this. Could have saved myself QUITE a bit of trouble adjusting my breeding around that weekend.
So, basically those that only breed very recessive eyes had NO chance of getting Lucky Irish Clover...