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+--- Thread: Web Market sortable by price! (/showthread.php?tid=28290)
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - TerrorMisu Resident - 01-28-2017 05:33 PM
You are correct, on all counts,Theo! More often than not the result is buy low-sell high. Nice post!
(01-28-2017 05:18 PM)Theodore Nacht Wrote: While this certainly sounds like a great convenience for those who wish to buy something as inexpensively as possible (and I have been one of those buyers at various points in my KittyCatS career), it fails to understand some of the driving forces behind our community's cohesion and success.
The price sorting does enable you to nab a trait as cheaply as possible--much like shopping on Amazon--and provides convenience. However, for a great many things, it's better to regularly patronize trusted breeders who can provide customer service and additional benefits...
As an auctioneer for almost six years in KC, I've been blessed to meet hundreds of sellers, all asking me "How should I price this cat?" My answer is what it's always been: Price it as low as you can stand to part with it. If you feel robbed selling it for 500, start it at 600. I don't ask them, "Is someone else selling this cat for less?" I don't tell them it's better to sell at a discount than to "no sale."
In my experience, top breeders and those who aspire to be a top breeder value their work, their bloodlines, and their customers. They provide additional services to customers paying a fair price for a great cat, including but not limited to breeding advice, encouragement, mentorship, and often even discounts on additional cats from the same bloodline. I've even been given (as a customer) free hiders and even showers of highly desirable traits because I developed a relationship as a regular buyer with that breeder. Moreover, in developing these relationships, I've revealed my favorite traits and combinations, and sometimes I'll receive a random gift of a cat that particularly suits my fancy because that breeder just knows what I love, saw the cat, and thought, "He'd buy this anyway; it belongs with him."
You can sell at volume, potentially, by utilizing this system, and if that suits your needs, and you're in KCs exclusively to make money, then this is all to the good.
However, if you are here for the experience, I hope anyone reading this will feel no pressure to price low just to get noticed. Customers who want the VIP treatment will continue to pay a few hundred lindens more, not just to secure the best buyer experience but to reward excellence in their community.
I do predict that this development may result in a "buy low-sell high" situation as opportunistic sellers snatch up the lowest priced entries to resell at a higher price--which will be the lowest once they eliminate the previous top results. These cats will not be sold by their original breeder, and the customer service will suffer as a result. I will be more wary of this as a buyer going forward. This seems to suggest we'll see a fresh rash of it, though the phenomenon is by no means new.
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Certified Lunasea - 01-28-2017 05:56 PM
To be completely honest, this kind of thing will not throw the market out of balance in the least. It won't keep breeders from pricing lower, or others from pricing higher for the same kinds of cats. Nor does it force anyone to price things, much less pricing them in a way they are not comfortable doing. What it will do is allow for the market to balance itself according to supply and demand while allowing all different kinds of markets and breeders to coexist, as a free market should do. It will also provide a potential source of learning for those newer to selling cats in that they can see what the average fair market price is for a cat with similar traits to their own.
You are free to set your price and I am free to set my price, You are free to buy low and sell high and I am free to pay what I feel is fair for a cat I like, in this regard nothing changes. And as far as customer service goes, KittyCatS! is THE source for customer service with any cat issues. Any other services or products not offered by KittyCatS! are supported by the people offering those services or products. This too has not changed just by the introduction of this feature.
This is not going to hurt any relationships we have or anyone else has with breeders they know and trust, but it will allow consumers to obtain cats with similar (or even identical) traits at a price that they may consider a good deal, even if they wish to pay a higher price than what is lowest to support the breeders they like, they are free to do that after all.
Getting upset by having the ability to sort cats by price is no different really than sorting by trait count, location, or any other criteria. This just allows customers an added convenience while allowing the rest of us a new learning opportunity. Nobody has been undermined, or lost freedoms to conduct business as they see fit, or been damaged by this change to an optional third-party product.
TL;DR - It will be business as usual in the KittyCatS! Secondary Market.
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Pancake Littlepaws - 01-28-2017 05:58 PM
I am really deeply offended by people telling meh my cheap cats are inferior or lower quality then there more expensive cats! This is really getting old so is the entire price war thing. I think its time someone was blunt! About all this!
First off my cats are not inferior nor is anyone elses! All cats are equal. All traits have the same chance as far as we know of showing up in a starter cat as long as its not limited edition trait! the end.
Next we come to breeding! not all breeders are created equal. I count my self middle of the pack. I am slow breeder but I know what I like to get and work toward's it. I am not always the fastest and my cats are not always the most solid breeding. That being said I don't breed for profit I breed for fun. I breed for the community and I honestly breed for kitties like this one.
▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼▼
♂ Tom Rescue Ranger!
҉ 121 days ♥ Off ☻ 93% ↯ 35% 모☁ 0%
Fur: Genesis - Flame V
Eyes: Genesis Earth (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)
Size: 45 cm (17.7 inch)
This kitty was a abandoned kitty given to a friend. I bought it off them cheap because I knew someone else would buy it and send it for kbucks. I find the kitties personality to be spunky and fun. I am not sorry if other's don't find the same enjoyment I do out of Kittycats. I am not sorry if people don't like meh. I am not sorry if they don't like meh selling my kitties for cheap. I am tired of being sorry for things that I feel.
Bottom Line is if your enjoyment is if someones enjoyment is so hugely impacted by selling your kitties for higher prices! and making money in KC then are you really in Kittycats for the right reasons? Are you really contributing to the community? The amount of kitties you need to sell and the prices you must sell at cause such a huge burden on your enjoyment. Then perhaps its time to look at down sizing, leaving, are re evaluate what your doing.
As far as the profilers go and offering prices! The last time I checked the kittycats market is open market. Its open for meh its open for anyone. Kittycats does not dictate the prices except! that all cats are worth like 25 lindens cause thats the value of like 50 kbucks. Don't like the profilers don't use them is what getting at with this. There are plenty of people who do use and enjoy them. There not wrong for wanting to use or enjoy them either!!!
As I said Love meh hate Meh Vote Areilla! but we are a community its time we start getting along
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Theodore Nacht - 01-28-2017 06:28 PM
(01-28-2017 05:56 PM)Certified Lunasea Wrote: To be completely honest, this kind of thing will not throw the market out of balance in the least. It won't keep breeders from pricing lower, or others from pricing higher for the same kinds of cats. Nor does it force anyone to price things, much less pricing them in a way they are not comfortable doing. What it will do is allow for the market to balance itself according to supply and demand while allowing all different kinds of markets and breeders to coexist, as a free market should do. It will also provide a potential source of learning for those newer to selling cats in that they can see what the average fair market price is for a cat with similar traits to their own.
You are free to set your price and I am free to set my price, You are free to buy low and sell high and I am free to pay what I feel is fair for a cat I like, in this regard nothing changes. And as far as customer service goes, KittyCatS! is THE source for customer service with any cat issues. Any other services or products not offered by KittyCatS! are supported by the people offering those services or products. This too has not changed just by the introduction of this feature.
This is not going to hurt any relationships we have or anyone else has with breeders they know and trust, but it will allow consumers to obtain cats with similar (or even identical) traits at a price that they may consider a good deal, even if they wish to pay a higher price than what is lowest to support the breeders they like, they are free to do that after all.
Getting upset by having the ability to sort cats by price is no different really than sorting by trait count, location, or any other criteria. This just allows customers an added convenience while allowing the rest of us a new learning opportunity. Nobody has been undermined, or lost freedoms to conduct business as they see fit, or been damaged by this change to an optional third-party product.
TL;DR - It will be business as usual in the KittyCatS! Secondary Market.
This is largely accurate. I fret about possible impacts of things on the market because I love KittyCatS, but I don't wish anyone to interpret what I said as alarmist. I'll simply be more careful about impulse buys and make certain pedigree and seller's name match up to ensure customer support should I have questions about a cat.
@JenniferShelby & Arella Ohmai, I would never suggest your cats are worth less because you price them lower. While not all traits have an equal chance of appearing (rare traits are rare for a reason), I've often found "common" cats to be the cutest and will pay more for them. (It's well known among my friends that Bengal Sorell and Snowshoe Red are the way to my heart; that boo boo whiskers and porcelain shade are the best; changing leaf eye is bae, but light wash is pretty amazing too. Put them all together, and I will pay good money.) I wouldn't in any way tell you how to breed or how to price your cats, and people with the most expensive new traits are not necessarily better breeders... Often they're just IRL wealthy or very lucky. I simply want to encourage every breeder who's here for the fun of it to dare to value their hard work and price their cats in a way that feels good to them and isn't simply about pricing as low as you can go.
Although, it's completely valid if you just want people to enjoy your breeding and you're sharing your cats at cost to encourage more people to buy your kitties.
As for everyone getting along, I love this community and the people who belong to it. Hopefully anyone analyzing my words will understand them from that perspective.
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Izo Ryba - 01-28-2017 06:39 PM
I have noticed that the prices that are displayed on the webmarket page sometimes are NOT what the cat is actually set to sell for..........like that cocoberry listed for $50 that was really set for 600 LOL
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Certified Lunasea - 01-28-2017 07:03 PM
(01-28-2017 06:39 PM)Izo Ryba Wrote: I have noticed that the prices that are displayed on the webmarket page sometimes are NOT what the cat is actually set to sell for..........like that cocoberry listed for $50 that was really set for 600 LOL
I would say if you run into this then you should probably contact the seller about it. If we take the time to list a price on the profiler we want that price to be accurate, but sometimes mistakes get made, we are all human after all.
Except me. I really am a shadow tiger.
Anyway, if the issue is unable to be resolved with the seller, for whatever reason, then you may want to contact Rene about it as I am sure he wants his web market to accurately reflect the in-world data, including the price if it is set.
When used properly this feature can be a wonderful tool, when used improperly it could cause issues. Kind of like everything in SL.
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Ivy Lane - 01-28-2017 07:59 PM
1. cats are not created equal, just as real life kitties... people can breed what ever they want for fun, the "Market" is about selling not fun, why else do we have prices?
Business is about marketing and profit, you might enjoy your work that does not mean it's not work and that should not be compensated.
2. Most people sell their cats to make some money. Most people seem to like or enjoy finding a bargain. This is not just in second life or kittycats, seems pretty true in what ever reality you reside.
3. Like it or not in life, in kittycats, in reality we all make judgments to suit our own needs, desires and ambitions.
My breeding mentors taught me many things, and the first thing I was asked by all of them was what is your plan? Why are you breeding this cat? What do you want to get from it? These are question we have to ask ourselves as a community and for those of us that breed for a business. Many of the cats I see being defended as the "cheapest" cats a term used by Rene for those of you feeling that your efforts are not appreciated or valued... you need to consider the terms used to describe your efforts and reality in this world and real world. You need to consider these questions.
If you breed for fun, yay a cat that costs 25L and has 3 traits makes you happy yay! go for it. If you breed for profit then a cat for 2000L with a full 9T and some of the new and most recessive traits is important to you. Just like in real life if you are happy with a beer can tab for an engagement ring yay! If you like a tattoo wedding band yay for you! If you want a solid yellow gold ring with real diamonds not crystals/CZ than you will pay more. Breeding kitties is the same thing, buyer beware/you get what you pay for. If you can't sell your cats except to others who want to breed low trailed cats, great you have your market, you've defined your business model set before you and if it does not pay your rent or for the kibble they consume, oh well you are doing it for fun.
I don't think there should be name calling here on either end of the spectrum, do what you want but don't complain when your results are that you don't make any money with kittycats... because if you charge menagerie prices for cats that other people will just menagerie, you did it for fun and if it cost you $20 a month or less well you would have spent that on entertainment elsewhere. On the other hand, take confettis for instance: not every one breeds them, not everyone wants to. For those who do the investment in the breeding time and how it works in the long term means the yield for resaleable breedable offspring is prohibitive and so the market value of the cats needs to reflect the cost of producing them as was stated in someone else's post. If a person breeds 2 cocoberry from the menagerie dollars, here is a quick and dirty breakdown, if you want the exact numbers feel free to contact me for the notecard.
MENAGERIE COCOBERRY CONFETTIS
COST TO ACQUIRE
‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾
L$20 (linden dollars) = K$50 (kitty dollars)
K$5,000 = 1 cocoberry Confetti
100 boxes must be sent to menagerie to get K$5,000
So a breeding pair is K$10,000 just to purchase; 200 boxes sent to menagerie
If we say each box is L$20 than that is L$4,000 (this does not include what you paid to feed the cats you bred to get the 200 boxes). If you pay more than L$20 per box the price goes up, often sell outs from catteries can be purchased from L$50-L$75 per box making the price substantially higher. (L$10,000 – L$15,000)
1 cat (Confetti or any kind) costs 1 bowl of food per month to feed so you can breed. You need two Confettis to breed Confettis so that is at least 2 bowls per month per breeding pair for breeding
KittyCats breed for 120 days that is 4 months so 4 bowls of food per cat per lifetime of breeding
If you do not wish to cuddle you will want to buy milk, so that means the same amount of milk
8 boxes of food = L$1,360 lifetime of Confetti breeding pair
8 boxes of milk = L$1,120 lifetime of Confetti breeding pair
So far, if you menageried your own boxes or if you paid only L$20 per box, that makes your Confetti breeding project investment a total of
L$5,360 without milk
L$6,480 with milk
[US dollar investment $23-$27 for a breeding pair and a life of breeding]
WHAT DO YOU GET FOR YOUR INVESTMENT? WHAT IS THE RETURN?
‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾
Since there are four fur traits possible per each Confetti KittyCat
normal dominant
normal recessive
confetti dominant
confetti recessive
When you put two Confetti together to breed you have a 25% chance of receiving a pretty little rainbow Confetti box kitten from the breedings. Each parent contributes one gene
normal + normal = normal
normal + Confetti = normal
Confetti + normal = normal
Confetti + Confetti = Confetti
This means each and every time you breed you have a 25% chance of a Confetti box; over the lifetime of that cat (120 days) that is approximately 16 breeding cycles (births/boxes)
If 25% or 1/4 of them are Confetti, you should theoretically have only 4 possible Confettis born and the rest will be genesis or normal other fur. If you get that many boxes you are lucky, it's probability and chance and not a guarantee – each breed is 25% chance – you could have no Confetti boxes from your investment, it does happen.
If your return is 4 boxes than each box is at least worth L$1,320 to L$1,620 just to recap your investment and selling all four boxes if you receive four, if you only get 2 boxes than double that as the value for sale price, but more than likely you will want to keep them and breed them back to make more Confetti, so selling one for L$5,000 to L$7,000 would recap your initial investment and allow you to continue breeding, if you are lucky enough to get at least three babies from your initial investment. Anything less than that and you are paying out of pocket.
This is only for Cocoberry fur, if you want to breed the colors the investment is higher. On the plus side your yield is higher, but that is still rather random as every breed can give you a useless cat for your breeding project goals (notice the value of a genisis cat is not useless, it is useless for your goal of breeding confettis since it is not a confetti).
Now apply this knowledge to a person who acquires a 2 traited cat with a new traits and spends three months breeding a line to 9 awesome very usable traits. It is a process, and an investment of money and time to create something like that from scratch. My vision, my investment, my creation at completion is worth more than that original 2 traited cat no matter what I paid for it, so if you want to know what makes me aggravated in all this, it's that new traits cost so much on poorly bred cats... and then after all the work and love you get less money for a finished and much more useful product. Whether I like it or not, the fact of the real world (SL or FL) and business world is that people pay more for the new shiny.
So bottom line is why are we only talking about pricing and cheapest cats? Rene you do yourself a disservice not mentioning all the other wonderful features you have included. Search by ear, tail, what ever! That is glorious, check this out
![[Image: CtkavcF.png]](http://i.imgur.com/CtkavcF.png)
Why are we as a community having a field day jumping on the pricing bandwagon and taking this so personal when it's about options and choices and the market has increased those; look at the drop down. Why are we only discussing prices? Why was this post just about the "cheapest" cats? Why do we gravitate towards the drama and miss all the facts?
I think that as a community the bigger problem is that we do not want new people to be treated unfairly or taken advantage off. Knowledge is power, this is true of kittycats and life.
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Rene Marseille - 01-28-2017 08:04 PM
(01-28-2017 07:03 PM)Certified Lunasea Wrote:(01-28-2017 06:39 PM)Izo Ryba Wrote: I have noticed that the prices that are displayed on the webmarket page sometimes are NOT what the cat is actually set to sell for..........like that cocoberry listed for $50 that was really set for 600 LOL
I would say if you run into this then you should probably contact the seller about it. If we take the time to list a price on the profiler we want that price to be accurate, but sometimes mistakes get made, we are all human after all.
Except me. I really am a shadow tiger.
Anyway, if the issue is unable to be resolved with the seller, for whatever reason, then you may want to contact Rene about it as I am sure he wants his web market to accurately reflect the in-world data, including the price if it is set.
When used properly this feature can be a wonderful tool, when used improperly it could cause issues. Kind of like everything in SL.
Yes I check the cats sometimes myself and I have to say it doesn't happen often that people try to cheat. In this case I want to believe that it was a typo, 60 instead of 600. I fixed it
(01-28-2017 07:59 PM)Ivy Lane Wrote: ...
So bottom line is why are we only talking about pricing and cheapest cats? Rene you do yourself a disservice not mentioning all the other wonderful features you have included. Search by ear, tail, what ever! That is glorious, check this out
...
Why are we as a community having a field day jumping on the pricing bandwagon and taking this so personal when it's about options and choices and the market has increased those; look at the drop down. Why are we only discussing prices? Why was this post just about the "cheapest" cats? Why do we gravitate towards the drama and miss all the facts?
I think that as a community the bigger problem is that we do not want new people to be treated unfairly or taken advantage off. Knowledge is power, this is true of kittycats and life.
The reason why we talk about prices is because people complained about it. There are different opinions about it. My opinion is that showing prices won't damage the market and it won't change the prices. I showed the cheapest cats as an example. And tomorrow you can look again, will the cheapest cats be gone from the market? Will everyone buy the cheapest cats? Of course not! As you pointed out there are other factors that play a role. For example, just because one Toyger is cheaper than the other Toyger doesn't mean that it is better.
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Pancake Littlepaws - 01-28-2017 09:03 PM
bottom line is this I think! regardless of your stance or view point. I hope we can all agree on this. When we don't like something we don't support it. Don't like profilers thats ok don't support them. Don't support markets that use them or allow them. Don't support breeders who use them. Don't support the creator.. take your money else where. Sadly I think thats a lonely road but. I can see others points of views and respect them and think that thats the only fair answer.
Callie had the images removed from the profilers! That was about as far as things could be taken as far as KC end goes.
The bottom line from what I am seeing is other then a vocal minority on the forums. I see profilers everywhere still, I do mean everywhere. That tells me people feel they add enough value to continue using them.
RE: Cheapest Cats on the Web Market! - Aubreygrace Starlight - 01-29-2017 12:11 AM
(01-28-2017 06:39 PM)Izo Ryba Wrote: I have noticed that the prices that are displayed on the webmarket page sometimes are NOT what the cat is actually set to sell for..........like that cocoberry listed for $50 that was really set for 600 LOL
Or that mega that was 100 and it was 2k, or the cats that when you tp aren't actually the cat that's there. Lol,
Anyway, i usually stay out of stuff like this, I agree with Arella andsomewhat with Terror(but lowe priced cats aren't horrible), and I appreciate theo's posts as well.
I myself, atm can't afford too much in sl so yes I have been bying lower prices. I would not say the cats are cheap because the breeding was great and the cat was great.
I also have been having sales lately but I usually let it last a week or so and bump the prices back up. I do not have crappy cats like some in Terrors circle have told me. I have alot of new traits which are born from the starters i was lucky. I may not be the best breeder in KC,(actually no one has that title, we all breed different and unique, and to me everyone is a great breeder, so sick of labels)
I see it from all sides.
Yes you want the market prices to keep value for more than a week on the newer stuff, bt things have bene dropping fast, The profilers with the prices make it more competiitve now, and also people do post a lot on the forums too, but this is probably the worst i've seen it in my4 years. with that said, I wish everyone happy breeding and price how you want to, as long as i make enough to feed my cats since i can't pour rl money into sl i'm good. and i love breeding just for fun, not in it to make money like a lot of the bigger breeders are.